Results 1441 - 1460 of 1541
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Results from: Notes Author: justme Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1441 | The husband of only one wife? | Titus 1:6 | justme | 124655 | ||
EdB: I have never really felt it was the proper time to give anyone my belief about divorce and especially in reguards to a divorece man being a church leader, pastor, deacon or elder. However, after nearly two decades of prayer and study I will present to you my basis for my belief. I sincerely hope this will reflect an honest response, given in Christian love, kindness, and respect. What kind of person does the New Testament permit to be a church leader-pastor or deacon, or elder? The time of ordination brings this question into sharp focus and often to equally sharp contention. Some Christians assume that the clear teaching of scripture is our ungqestioned and unquestionable guide. But what constitutes that clear teaching is open to considerable question. The one question that almost invariably leads to the sharpest contention is the matter of granting ordination to one who has been divorced, whether he be remarried or not. The limited treatment that the Nes Testament gives this subject results in our being almost forced to depend directly on statements found in 1 Timothy 3:2, 12. Since the number of deacons and elders who serve, in every church exceeds the number of pastors who are connected with it, more debate arises over this matter that men eligible for the office of deacon, or elder than considering men eligible for the pastorate. Yet this question involves more than one issue. Christians would profit by giving as close attention to the basic function of a deacon or elder in the Nes Testament as given to specfic details of personal qualifications. (William Barclay, in The Daily Study Bible om 1 Timothy, gives a brief on thid mstter that would help most chruches.) Helping deacons and elders understand their true function could greatly vitalize the life of many churches. As for the deacon's or elder's qualifications, I can register some opinions on the meaning of the ! Timothy pasage, recognixing that this is anything but an authoritative statement. If you see fit to cite anything in this statement, please cite it as an opinion. Too, pleast be sure that you have given the true context of the statement. Many short statements, when taken out of context, sound like something far different from the meaning established by the context. One who wishes to study the subject must recognize that verses 2 and 12 cannot be isolated from the teachings of the entire passage, 1 Timothy 3:1_13. Too, the close similarity of the description of an acceptable bishop and acceptable deacon or elder demands that the interpreter consider the statements on each in light of statements on the other. The problems have arisen out of the translation of the Greek phrase (mias gunaikos andra in verse 2 and mias gunaikos andres in verse 12.) The context caused the number of the word for "man" to differ. Andra is singular: andres is plural. That is a meaningless point of granatical form. Traditionally this phrase has been translated "the husband of one wife." This specfic rendering opend the field to ridged interpretation and application. For most people that translation has made the phrase a standard for church leadership based on a man's marriage history. End of part one, see part 2 continued. |
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1442 | The husband of only one wife? | Titus 1:6 | justme | 124660 | ||
Part 2, continued. I do not think that Paul intended his words to be taken in that way nor to be applied in the manner that arises naturally out of this translation, particulary when it touches on divorce that occured before a man became a Christian. This view rests on three areas of truth. First, the area of grammar. Those three Greek words may be translated more properly as "a man of one woman' OR "a one woman man." The expressions could have several meanings; (1) a man MUST have been married to no more than one woman; (2) a man who has been married to only one woman; (3) a man who is now married to only one woman; (4) a man whose pattern of life limits his intimate relationships to one woman. Any one of these terms pictures a truly monogamous man as opposed to the "alley cat" approach to life, which characterized pagan society and increasingly characterizes our own. I do not know exactly which of the four thoughts Pai\ul had in mind. Yet by examining the two uses of the phraes in their contexts I believe that, of the four,numbers (1) and (2) are the least applicable. In listing standards of life quality for both a bishop and elder, deacon paul used along with a series of adjectives and ajective phrases. This puts a meaningful emphasis on two things: (1) The character of the Greek grammer gives this phrase a sense that this is parallel to a one-word adjectival discription, suggesting that "a one-woman man" is the most appropriate translation. This means that Paul intended the phrase to discribe the man's character and his overall pattern of relationships with the opposite sex, rather than to describe a man's marriage history. (2) All the other terms that accompany this phrase are marked by an unavoidable fact: they cannot be applied to any person in a fixed, set, or ridgid manner. Examine every other expression in both lists. All of them treat generally notable traits or characteristics of personal, family, and church life. No one can apply any of these traits to the life of persons in such a way as to show a clear didvding point to be on one side means acceptability and to be on the other means non-acceptability. How would one draw such a line in making a strict application of "serious," "not double tongued," "not greedy for gain," holding "the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience," or managing "their children and their households well"? The way Paul wrote these paragraghs that he drew no distinction between the nature and application of these standards of "a one-woman man." Although Paul was no great Greek stylist, he knew how to draw sharp distinction in meaning. If he had intended to set this standard apart from others, several forms of expression that he used regularly were available to him. If he has intended to say what the traditional translation implies I believe firmly that he eould not have included this phrase as one of a list of trauts that wehave described above. Rather, he would have separated it and made it unqualifiedly specfic. At the same time I recognize that more cometent Greek scholars than I will ever be, have defended the traditional translation. The second area is the historical situstion. As good a breif discussion of this subject as you are likely to find is also in Barclay's work. Since in Paul's day all Christians were adults at the tome of their conversion, I find it hard to believe that a persons pre-conversion history of marriage had any place in Paul's thought. To Paul, the man in Christ has become new all over (2 Cor. 5:17). It sems obvious to me that a man's career in marriage agter his conversion becomes a matter quite distinct from his pre-conversion experience. And his his career in marriage after his conversion would have to be handled on its own merits. A thing that church people often tend to overlook in the fact that there are sorry women just as there are sorry men. Sorry men have devasted the lives of many good women. And sorry women have devasted the lives of many men. To lay down a strict rule based on objective, historical facts alone is contrary to Paul's entire approch to the workings of the Christian faith. Such a rule smacks of the Pharisee's and the Judaizers" approach to godly living. The third area is today's practical situation. This involves two distinct parts. the first is a practice that is indefensible. In Christian testimonies great emphasis has been put on what a new Christian has turned from. The more lurid, dramatic description of past sins one can give, the more glorious has his conversion seemed to be. To tell of gross immorality, vice, or crime and tell of how Christ turned one from it all, is a guararanteed way of producing many an emotional "amen" from an audience, unless one includes in that story the fact of a broken marriage. End of part two. Continue to Part three |
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1443 | The husband of only one wife? | Titus 1:6 | justme | 124669 | ||
Part Three, Continued. The common reaction to that story is much more stifled. It suggests, "What a pity that the Lord cannot use fully a person with such a powerful testimony!" This attitude makes divorce the only unforgivable sin, and it appears to me to be a parallel to Jesus' experience with the Pharisees and Paul's experience with the Judaizers. The second aspect of our practicle situation grows out of some convictions on how the Lord aperates. I believe that He inspired Paul in writing of! Timothy. (I am fully aware of the problems, critical and practical, that this statement will cause many people) I believe also in called ministry (leadership). (This fact underscores the importance of seeing the unity of the standards Paul set out for pastors and for deacond and elders.) Too, I believe that the Lord does not "stomble over his own feet, I cannot conceive of this kind of situation: The Lord set out a condition that automatically makes men in-eligible to serve as spiritual leaders; yet he keeps calling men who are inthat condition to accept such responsibilities. Therefore I believe that the nature of people's past and present experiences with God make impossible for all the following statements to be true; one must be false: (1) The lord inspired (gave active spiritual guidance in) the writing of! Timothy. (2) Mias gunaikos andra was intended to be translated and interpreted in the traditional way. (3) The Lord is still calling into the service of spiritual leadership men who have been divorced. Every person will have to choose which of the three he thinks is false. I have already affirmed number (1). As a result of dealing with numerous divorced men whose lives attest the reality of a call to some form of special spiritual ministry, I feel number (3) must be true. Therefore I must believe that number (2) is false. Some Christians can toss number (1) aside; so they can accept both (2) and number (3) with no problem. Some may even feel that any direct, personal call to ministry is a figment of the imagination. So each will have to work through this problem in light of his own view of inspiration and the way God deals with his people, as well as his view of how to interpret scripture. But one must never assume that the problem is not serious. It is a vital focal point in matters of both standards for personal, moral living and the bonds of fellowship in our churches. So deal with issue as thoroughly, carefully, and prayerfully as possible. Sometimes it may be necessary to follow Paul's admonition that grew out of a parallel problem in his time, eating food offered to idols. Some people's viwe is so bound by a kind of legalism that they cannot comprehend a departure from their strict standards. Paul saw such people as "weak in the faith," although true believers in Christ. He counseled those who saw things at a higher level to deal considerately with such weakness (see Romans 14; 1 Cor. 8-10). Such graciousness may mean that a man spiritually qualified to serve in some capacity may forego the opportunity, at least temporarily, for the benefit of those who are truly weak in the faityh, thus keeping strong the ties of fellowship in the church. R\Thus, too, is a form of ministering in God's grace anong those who must be served. This has taken many years to collect my thoughts, and put them together in a understandable way, to the best of my ability. Nothing is ever orginal and many sources have I used to gather my thoughts. Seminary was also a place for gathering this into a work that I thank so many for extending to me clearer understanding on such a serious subjest. A special acknowledgement to Dr. William Coble, who is now with the Lord, without him I would be of "weak faith". With blessings I send this in the hopes others my also search their hearts for better understanding. justme |
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1444 | The husband of only one wife? | Titus 1:6 | justme | 124756 | ||
EdB: Your responce was welcome. I think we understand how the other has come to the conclusion the other has about this huge issue. I think that unless we have reasearched this to what say is the "priesthood of the believe" and can back our view with a solid Biblical answer than we are only shooting off the hip, of emotional feelings. In my observation this issue still goes back to the orignal intent of Paul, and how the Greek reads. I was hoping you might address is a divorce takes place before becoming a Christian, would you view still be the same? Do you see any circrmsatnce that would be an exception? I believe Scripture points to the liberation of people from sin, and freedom to serve the Lord. I also believe and have observed that religious people are eager to preach (2 Cor.5:17) becoming a New Creature in Christ, and behold all things become new. However not for anyone who has beeen divorced! In other words God sets free, and liberates, then the religious not only keep one bound, but have a different satndard for the divoced, a higher standard than for someone who has murdered, sold drugs, been involved in every sexual sin you can name. I cannot find this understanding anywhere in Scripture. Ed, is not all sin firgiven exactally the same way? Is there any sin God does not forgive and cleanse with the Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ? If we add stipulations to the limitations Christ's justification and forgiveness, we make confession and repentance inadiquate as a requirement for forgiveness of sin. 1 John 1:9,10. To refuse to recongnize a genuine call of God on ones life, perhaps due to our wrong understanding of Scripture, do we not make a very serious error? I wonder how many have been refused to be allowed to minister, because of bad theology, and not understanding the true meaning of Scripture. In no way do I justify divorce. I find divorce when someone is a Christian very disturbing, heart-braking, and distructive to ones testimony. Often divorce takes a lifetime to restore relationships within the faimily, and children of that marriage. Finally may no where does the Bible say the word "qualifications", however "character" is mentioned several times. There is a big difference in lifestyle character, and qualifications. I hope thsi give some more imput for consideration. Blessings. justme |
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1445 | The husband of only one wife? | Titus 1:6 | justme | 124911 | ||
EdB: I erspect you views, but we do understand things differently. I choose love or all. Nothing has been said to cause any ill feelings amd with genuine love I call you my brother. Blessing EdB. justme |
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1446 | Deacon qualifications | Titus 1:6 | justme | 176068 | ||
Pmjohnson: Many believe the Scripture says the husband of one wife, that this makes refereence to the fact that the man did not have more wives than one. At that time pologamy was excepted by the culture. This saying the husband of one wife. In Africa today this is an issue. and we are glad that Paul addressed this issue. Each man and church must carefully pray and see if a nams lifestyle has been devoted to his wife and has the character to be a decon. These are not quailifcations as much as a mans devoation and character. To reject a man just because of a divorce, before or after coming to Christ is up to the Church. I personally believe each man must prove himself worthy, and go into a training for such a minisrty. All to often those in the position of Deacon or Elder take the position as a way to have authority. When the real meaning of Deacon was one who waited on tables, according to Acts. Unless a Deacon is a humble a servant, willing to do as Matthew 25 says about those who said "when did we see you.....Lord? Thenunless they have a servants heart they should not serve. Hope this helps. No one should just all of a sudden start serving to get a position. We need to find those who are serving without a position, then we have a real Deacon. Justme |
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1447 | Should I vote in a election? | Titus 3:1 | justme | 232376 | ||
shoeplumb: Welcome to theStudy Bible Forum. If you vote or do not vote you need yo be convicted by Scripture which to do. Amish, and some other religious denominations feel it is wrong for them to vote. I am a totally disabled Veteran, and I have earned my voting rights the very hard way. I would no more forget about voting as I do about breathing. However I respect the view of someone not to vote because they feel as a Christian they should not. I do not think being harsh on the subjecthelps anyone. justme |
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1448 | ... | Titus 3:9 | justme | 219199 | ||
Seadirt: I do respect those who believe in keeping the LAW. But if one is to keep the LAW and believe Jesus Christ, which one do you believe saves a person. Can one be saved without keeping the the LAW, but only believing in Christ Jesus? Blessings. justme |
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1449 | Apostasy. Can one return to Christ? | Heb 6:4 | justme | 55345 | ||
Kalos: do you believe in Apostasy yourself? I think I would say that "faith that falters, had a flaw ib the begining". That is a quote but I have no resource. agape, justme |
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1450 | Apostasy. Can one return to Christ? | Heb 6:4 | justme | 55445 | ||
Kalos: thank you for giving a factual opinion, thatwas not wolven with "I think" I respect your view. I am sorta in a developement stage of this theology. agape, justme |
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1451 | If u r saved can u ever become un saved? | Heb 6:4 | justme | 105599 | ||
Aniset: In fairness to all, these verses in Hebrews do have several explinations as to their meanings. As the dialogue has been engaged in for many many times, I would like to suggest a different direction to think about. Is there any sin, other than rejecting Jesus Christ, that is not forgiveavle? If the Holy Spirit puts a seal on us as being in Christ Jesus, Can the Holy Spirit ever fail in sealing us? If we can not believe every promise in the Word of God, that which ones can we trust. I am sure you know I am not the typical "once saved always saved" person. I believe "faith that falters had a flaw in it from the first. I think as others, the Hebrews passage is talking about Jews that were close but could not be brought back to a place of repentance, even though they had seen and tasted, but not swallowed the complete salvation in Jesus Christ. Please don't consider this an arguement, just a dialogue with open respect for either position. justme |
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1452 | Near Death Experiences | Heb 9:27 | justme | 93701 | ||
Searcher56:-) Greetings. Recently on pps TV there was a progran in which a group of Doctors talked about patients who said they had near death experiences. Every doctor on the progran which was about ten, had simular reports. The conclusion of this group was when the brain is near death there are light images and audo imput that come to many if not most. This might well explain the peace some say they felt before being ressuated. For me this may explain how people who were anti christ while alive could mistake passing on with out Christ. My what a nightmare they will some day wake up to. You would think someone who went into a near death would be a changet person! I thought this might make your point more interseting. Blessings. justme |
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1453 | Couple of things... | Heb 9:27 | justme | 94251 | ||
Scripture specfically forbids psycics, witchcraft, speaking to the dead with mediums and the like. Wh have The Holy Scripyure that is what God speaks to us in, and the Holy Spiirit directs our path. As special as these near death stories are, as Christians we are to not be a part of this. Scripture is the Christians guide for life. Satan can and does come as an angel of light. I caution you not to be taken in by satans cunning ways. Flee from this before you get sucked into satans trap. Blessings. justme |
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1454 | CBN: neardeath to hell and back? ?? | Heb 9:27 | justme | 226576 | ||
BradK: Good answer. I watched the programs myself. Those who shared their "death" experiences for the most part really felt what they experienced was reality for them. Some gave testimony of how this experience changed their life. One man so changed his life after experiencing what he thought was "hell", he surrendered to Jesus Christ as Lord. He became a pastor because he wanted no one else to go to hell where he claimed to have seen. Personally, I find these testimonies subject to question. No matter how much is said to bring these people into question, it gets down to how has this experience changed the persons life to become closer to the Lord. Near death experiences are not new, and there is no one who has not undergone such an experience to fully explain or understand how this happens. Personally in the NT Joseph was changed to accept and marry Mary who was pregnant with Jesus, and was told to do so in a dream. Paul was changed by a blinding light and Jesus speaking to him, which no one else heard. I totally believe what Scripture says about Joseph and Paul. I myself have had God speak to me, not in words we can hear, but in the very soul of my heart. This experience has had a profound lasting change in my life and that was thirty five years ago. The Holy spirit speaks to us today by the reading of the Word of God, perhaps in dreams, from the preaching of His Word, and life experiences. I have no idea if all the people on the 700 Club telecasts were true. I had some doubt on some, and others i believed the testimonies to be true. If God was glorified and the person did not contradict Scripture I believed their testimony. justme |
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1455 | Blood sacrifices during the Millenium? | Heb 10:12 | justme | 112154 | ||
thelema: You have been forthright in your profile with you beliefs, and that is quite unusual. I respect your right to bring to the forum a dialogue that offers us an oppertunity to more fully understand others beliefs. You seem to have a solid understanding of the old Testament rituals, and the sacrifical requirements. That too is unique for most that I have encountered. I too have a copy of the Torah, and took a couple of classes from Rabbi Zedick. I found the class very enlightening and quite interesting, it was instruction I find useful even to this day. I find many Christians fail to understand that paticularly the book Deuteronomy is still a valid book of Scripture that gives advice as how we are to conduct our relationships, and protect our health. God's Word is living and active forever. I look to hear from you. Blessings. justme |
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1456 | Church is a safe place to be | Heb 10:25 | justme | 50304 | ||
Daer Hank: where did you come up with that percent in church? I think life is fatal 100 percent of the time sooner or later. agape. justme |
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1457 | Why church? | Heb 10:25 | justme | 65795 | ||
Ava4: Hi, this is justme. I understand exactly what you are saying! Sometimes people misunderstand what you have said, and as you said to look at your User Info would clear up a lot of their questions. By the way thank you for your respobse to my question, you are an inspiration, and a blessing. Make yourself real plain or this amy happen again. I call things like this my "senior moments" if you get what I mean. justme |
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1458 | Why church? | Heb 10:25 | justme | 65796 | ||
ava4: Well said friend. Only one who has gone through this may be able to understand what you mean. Salvation with out attending church is starvation, only a very slow painful one, that may lead only to saved by grace alone, and I do mean alone! justme |
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1459 | Why church? | Heb 10:25 | justme | 66187 | ||
ava4: Hopefully we are all a support for each other. justme |
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1460 | Church membership scriptural? | Heb 10:25 | justme | 169300 | ||
Messiahh'schild: I have read the notes to your question, and thought I would add food for thought. I attend Clavary Cahpel that does not have membership. Pryor to five years ago I was a baptist, which always have membership. Having been part of both I believe I can be fair as to my opinion. Even though Calvary Cahpel says they are not a denomination, they are one hair width from it. I do not like non-membership. I personally like a congreation form of governing, with Elders and Decons being voted by the congreation, and budgets voted on. Having said that, I respect the sincere desire of my churches Pastor and Elders to lead the church in the direction they are sure the Lord is leading. I have for the most have not found too much to not agree with. I feel the members have the right to see the budget and have greater input into these matters. Having been a pastor, I think non-membership makes it hard to know who really is a devoted Christian and loyal to the body of believers that they worship with. There is most certianly no reason why God can't work in either situation, and He does. I believe if the Lord is calling and there is a ministry that one feels they should do, then do whatever the Lord leads you to do. Blessings. Justme |
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