Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230212 | ||
Holmes, Let me try to restate in some points to tryu to clarify my answer on the murkey part. I won't apologize that I'm avoiding giving a dogmatic statment, what you are getting here is my best attempt to patch scripture together on this issue. 1.) I think denying the deity of Christ is fatal. 2.) I believe that when we are saved God grants us to receive certain truths about Him. You will not understand my answer unless you understand I work from a Calvinistic pressuposition. We only receive any saving truth in a saving way because God grants us to do so. I do not think that God grants us to "see the glory of God in the face of Christ" (2 Cor 4:1-6) and at the same time leaves us with a heart/mind that will reject trinitarian truth when shown from scripture. As salvation is start to finish entirely a work of God, even our willingness is His doing, we can not suggest a scenario of a partial Christian. I mean to say that whomever God converts, He also begins to work actual practical holiness into their lives, He keeps them in the faith until death, and many other things He does. We are not to imagine a scenario in which a man repents and trust Christs, is saved, and then chooses to live a worldly life from there onward; because the one whom God grants to receive Christ, He also grants lifelong repentance (1 John 5:18). In the same way, we are not to imagine a man who God grants to receive Christ, and then God does not grant him to believe the truth of the trinity when it is shown to him from scripture. 1Co 2:12-15 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. So here is what I "think" is right based on my beliefs. It seems that a man can be saved without a complete knowledge of the trinity, though I think he must realise that Christ is God. But a man rejecting the trinity reveals that he was converted to a God of his own imagination and was not truely born again. 3) I reject your suggestion that a simple yes or no will suffice to this question. I would not accept a scenario that leaves a supposidly saved man openly rejecting the doctrine of the trinity. Though I would accept a scenario of a born again Christian not yet having it fully explained to him. I will attempt to clarify if that doesn't make sense, but I will not attempt to simplify it. In Christ, Beja |
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2 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230215 | ||
Hi Beja, I appreciate your attempts to answer the question. This seems to me to be very important, a matter of salvation. So let me rephrase the questions to see if I can get a yes or no, then you can explain all you want. Please do not read anything into the questions beyond what is asked. A person believes in the Holy Spirit, but as the spirit of God the Father and not as a separate person. The Doctrine of the Trinity is explained to him and he rejects that the Holy Spirit is a separate person. He does not reject anything else about the Doctrine. Could that person be denied salvation solely because he does not believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate person? A person believes that Jesus is not co-equal with God the Father. The Doctrine of the Trinity is explained to him and he rejects that Jesus is co-equal to God the Father. He is not denying that Jesus is God or any other part of the Doctrine. Could that person be denied salvation solely because he does not believe that Jesus and God the Father are co-equal? Thanks, Holmes |
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3 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230216 | ||
Holmes, With regards to the Christ question you are going to have to clarify. In my ears you are saying contradictory remarks. They are acknowledging that Jesus is God yet not equal? You'd have to explain in what sense He is God and in what sense He is not equal. To me you are saying, lets begin with assuming there is a square circle. I can't get around the assumptions of the case in order to be able to answer you. With regards tot he Holy Spirit. I'm not going to give you a yes or no answer, because again, you are setting up what seems a false scenario. You are asking as if the person is trying to get a checklist down in order to receive a gift, and asking if this certain belief is on the check list. I'm telling you that very scenario is wrong. God grants us all things pertaining to salvation, and grants us the spirit to know what we have received. So what I am saying is that God does not give salvation without giving other things. Repentance, perseverance, the Holy Spirit, love for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and acceptance of certain key doctrines are all God's gifts to us, rather than a checklist we do to be saved. Let me try to answer concisely in these three things: 1.) The one thing needful to be saved is that we must be born again. 2.) The new birth gives us everything else. 3.) God never gives us just some of these things. A Christian will never be denied salvation "solely because he does not believe that the Holy Spirit is a seperate person." He will be denied salvation because he is a sinner guilty before an angry God, and has no mediator because he has not been granted the new birth that he may repent and trust to receive that mediator. If a man is born again purely from grace, he will then repent, believe, persevere, love, obey, and accept certain central truths. I will not give a yes or no answer to a question with faulty assumptions. Let me rephrase it into a question that I can give you a yes or no answer to. Will a born again man receive the teaching that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person of the glorious God head? Yes. Will a person who claims to be born again though in reality he is not born again, reveal himself to be such and still a naturally minded man when he rejects the doctrine of the trinity? Yes. That is my view. I think by this point, it should be clear what I believe. In Christ, Beja |
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4 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230222 | ||
Hi Beja, You wrote: “With regards to the Christ question you are going to have to clarify. In my ears you are saying contradictory remarks. They are acknowledging that Jesus is God yet not equal? You'd have to explain in what sense He is God and in what sense He is not equal. To me you are saying, lets begin with assuming there is a square circle. I can't get around the assumptions of the case in order to be able to answer you.” In what sense is Jesus God? I don’t think there is any disagreement here. In what sense is Jesus not equal to the Father? In the sense that Jesus stated this Himself and that He has a God and that God is His Father. Are there any scriptures that state that the Father or Holy Spirit have a God? Can you admit that some may read these verses and conclude that God the Father is greater than Jesus the Son, who is also God? Was Jesus making a contradictory remark and assuming there is a square circle? John: 14:28 “I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.” John: 20:17 “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.” Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" and again in verse 17: "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." I hope this helps you get around the assumptions so that you can answer the question, that is, must one believe that God the Father and Jesus are equal to gain salvation? Holmes |
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5 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230223 | ||
Holmes, Forgive me if I am wrong, but i am beginning to suspect that the reason you keep pressing is because you already know exactly where you want to take the conversation should you get a simple yes or no answer, and my failure to treat the subject as simple is hindering you from your already predetermined course. However, I will discuse it further for now. I will assume that I need not dwell on the Holy Spirit side of the question since you did not bring that back up, but I will try to explain why your question with regards to Christ needs clarified. The verses you quoted in John is the very reason I asked for clarity, because Christ DID say that the Father was greater. But this does not answer the question I asked of you. In what sense? Are you saying that the Father has power that Christ does not have? Are you saying that the Father is of a different substance or make up which is of better quality than Christ? Or rather are you merely saying that the Father is greater than the Son in terms of position or authority? In other words, Christ and the Father can be equal in all things, yet have priority in their roles. One example would be my wife and I. I have no inherent superiority over my wife, but I am her superior with regards to the chain of command, with regards to authority. So I say again, you still must explain to me what you are suggesting. Are you saying that Christ is not the same thing that God is, or are you merely talking about a positional superiority? If you are saying that Christ is, in His essence, inferior to the Father, then I suggest that you are in fact saying that Christ is NOT God. In that case yes, your pressupostions are contradictions and I would tell that believer He is in fact denying the deity of Christ, and the clear testimony of scripture. If I were to say to you that Jesus is a creating being, the cheif of angels, and in all ways inferior to the Father, but don't worry, I do affirm that He is God...then I hope you would rather quickly call me on it and say to me, "No sir, you deny Christ as God in every way." If a person is suggesting that the Father has a certain preiminence in the Godhead, a certain priority in authority and glory and perhaps chief share in the initiatives and eternal purposes of God, then I would not at all say such a person is denying the deity of Christ. And in that sense it seems to me scriptural to suggest that the Father is greater, and I believe it is to this which Christ referred in your quoted passages. So yes, you still need to clarify but I hope I answered either scenario in this post. In Christ, Beja |
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6 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230229 | ||
Hi Beja, OK, I forgive you for being wrong. No predetermined course, just a couple of simple questions. It seems to me that these scriptures are speaking of authority. If the Father is greater in authority, then they are not co-equal. Or is there something in the Doctrine that I am missing? Is there an exception for authority? Holmes |
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7 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 230230 | ||
Holmes, Yes. Unless I am misinformed (which I might be), I don't think any of the historical definitions of the trinity have any intention of denying differences in roles, functions, or authority in the midst of the trinity. In fact, these things are all further proofs of distinction within the trinity. The coequal is speaking with regards to the fact that they are all THE God and all the things that entails with regards to all the infinite perfections of God in power, beauty, holiness, etc. In Christ, Beja |
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8 | Is Belief in the Trinity Required? | Bible general Archive 4 | Holmes | 230231 | ||
Beja, Thank you for your thoughts. Holmes |
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