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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | clean body natural and spiritual | Bible general Archive 2 | C.S.M. | 155564 | ||
Hi Doc, I Cor 9:27 "I" (the real Paul, his spirit) keep under my body, and bring "it" (my body) into subjection: Paul is saying his spirit must control his body and it's lusts and desires. James 2:16 warns about what we must resist, "all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." Who's going to keep you from doing this, God? No, it's up to you to recognize, and resist it. I Peter 5:8-9 tells believers "Be sober, be vigilant; because YOUR adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour; (9) whom (you) resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your breathen that are in the world (system of thought, word and deed)." John 4:24 Because God is a Spirit and we're made in his image Gen 1:27, it is reasonable to conclude that we are a spirit. Even from the natural standpoint, we know we have a mind, a will and emotions, and scripture teaches Ro 1:20 The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are (already) made (and we understand naturally), even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they (all mankind) are without excuse. God makes the natural things we understand and compares them to the supernatural and spiritual things he understands, there fore it is another way God is able to communicate his life and life-style to uneducated, limited, mankind (that's all of us, in comparison to God). That's why it is written, "the Holy Ghost teaches" How? comparing spiritual things with spiritual. I Cor 2:13 and that discernment comes spiritually, from the Holy Spirit. II Cor 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. Paul said, including himself in the statement, "if any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he OUGHT to know." I Cor 8:2 Where does that put all the rest of mankind? Personally, I find the more I learn, the more I realize all the things I don't know, and how gracious God is for sharing what I can absorb, slightly. He saw I didn't have sense enough to come in out of the rain and he helps me, daily. We understand we have a body, if no other way except we see it daily! How can anyone say, the word doesn't mean what it says, when Paul, through the Holy Spirit said, "I pray God your whole spirit, and soul and body, be preserved blameless, unto the coming of the Lord." I Thes 5:23 If I can count, he names three parts..that makes up each individual person, for all ages and all times, according as it is written in God's word we are a three part being. I agree to disagree with your assertion that we are not three part beings. Always In Christ, C.S.M. |
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2 | clean body natural and spiritual | Bible general Archive 2 | DocTrinsograce | 155588 | ||
Dear CSM, 1 Corinthians 9:27 is speaking of the subjection of the body by the will. This language is used frequently in Scripture, but does not support the trichotomist position. At best, it supports the dichotomist position, since the will is implied and the body is that which is being controlled. James 2:16 is even less related to the human ontological question than 1 Corinthians 9:27. The argument is not whether or not we possess bodies, it is an issue of the three-fold or two-fold nature of man. You write, "Even from the natural standpoint, we know we have a mind, a will and emotions." That is not true. If you take a person with different presuppositions -- say someone from deep within the Amazon -- you will find that they do not conceptually divide a human being as you are doing. What you are expressing is a presuppositional hang-over of Greek and gnostic thinking. Furthermore, we cannot depend on natural knowledge to give us an accurate perception of our nature. Indeed, we are warned in Scripture not to do so! Romans 1:20 addresses a metaphysical question, not an ontological question. Creation consists of two broad parts: the spiritual world and the physical world. This verse gives support to neither of the trichotomist or dichotomist positions. 1 Corinthians 2:13 does is equally un-useful in this discussion. Indeed, most theologians agree that the teaching of the Holy Spirit mentioned here is the language of the Scriptures themselves. Furthermore, the notion of teaching is a cognitive function, implying only the mind. The "spiritual things to spiritual things" is referring to "the things of the Spirit of God, the doctrines of the Gospel, with the spiritual writings of the Old Testament." Frankly I'm puzzled over the reference to 2 Corinthians 10:12. It would seem to be advising you not to make the "from the natural standpoint" conclusions you used in an argument above. 1 Corinthians 8:2 seems also outside of the topic at hand. Let us remain focused on one question at a time. I've already addressed 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Bringing it up again implies that you hadn't read my previous post. A one sided discussion is not a discussion... it is a lecture. :-) I'd be happy to adjust my view of the dichotomist position -- really I would -- but I can only do it on Scripture alone. Why is it that you do not respond to the verses that I provided? Instead you just pontificate your own perspective. In Him, Doc |
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3 | clean body natural and spiritual | Bible general Archive 2 | C.S.M. | 155726 | ||
Hi Doc, I Cor 9:27 doesn't mention the will, only the body. Who is the, I, Paul is talking about? His spirit or his body? I don't see where you can conclude the will is implied? What is the scriptural basis? You are right,James 2:16 was not the correct scripture, the reference was I JOhn 2:16 so that would be confusing :) Yes, we do disagree as to the two part or three part being. All of God's word has to be considered in coming to conclusions and not just isolated parts, he knows more than all mankind put together and he is the revelator. I Thes 5:23 No one should have, and I know I did not have presuppositions. I came to my conclusions by study of the word. I had no clue mankind was spirit, soul and body, until I read it. Pre-suppositions come from lack of truth and Jesus identified the source of truth as God's word, not mankinds suppositions. John 17:17 That's good enough for me. Ro 1:20 What are the invisible things of him? Isn't it the spirit realm, the Holy Spirit, Heaven, hell, mankinds spirit (which is the image of God John 4:24, since God is a Spirit), thoughts of the innermost being of man. Actually I think we are of the same understanding on that issue. I don't know any Greeks or gnostic's :) don't know what they think so it couldn't be a hang-over. I Cor 2:13 is the heart of the New Testament teaching starting from John 1:33, John 14:26, 17, Acts 2:4, 33, 39, and many others as the purpose of the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit himself. Of course he teaches truth, so that is God's word, but he also give the revelation and understanding of this truth. I John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received of him (God the Father) abides in you, and you need NOT that ANY MAN teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie and even as it (or he) has taught you, you shall abide in him. Who do you say is the anointing? Where does the anointing come from? Who is the source of the anointing? Is it a someone, or just a something in your opinion? We know the natural anointing oil was used in the Old Testament, I realize the anointing is truth, as this verse says, but I also know Jesus is the truth, John 14:6, the Holy Spirit is the truth, John 16:13, and God's word, both living, written and spoken is truth. John 17:17. The truth is what we're after, so what is it, who is it, where is it, and who has it in your opinion? II Cor 10:12 seems to me to be a warning to all people who think they have all the answers of both the Spiritual and natural things as the examples from the previous scriptures (I Cor 10:1-12) that the Holy Spirit through Paul was explaining, for all mankind to read and take heed. verse 11 Now all these things happened to them for examples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. In reading what those folks did, they thought they had it all together and God said no they didn't. You do agree that man is both spiritual and physical (or natural)? Isn't it a fact that none of us know it all? II Cor 10:12 What that says to me from a personal level and in my walk with God is don't compare yourself with others. The way I view it is God gives each person their own things to accomplish for him. They are different and according to what he has given us, whether talents or whatever, specifically. If we look at someone else in the body of Christ and think they are doing more or less than we are, in either case, we would not be wise. As Paul continued he did not stretch himself beyond "our measure"...we each have what God wants us to do. Don't try to do the other persons job.. I realize some of these issues are considered by some as side issues to the original subject. I don't feel anything is a side issue and that all issues of life are connected in some way as a whole. See next note |
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4 | clean body natural and spiritual | Bible general Archive 2 | DocTrinsograce | 155796 | ||
Dear CSM, I'll try to answer you in distinct separate posts. You're getting pretty far afield here. You wrote, "I Cor 9:27 doesn't mention the will, only the body. Who is the, I, Paul is talking about? His spirit or his body? I don't see where you can conclude the will is implied? What is the scriptural basis?" (sic) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:27) Your question: "Who is the I Paul is talking about? His spirit or his body?" This is a false dichotomy. No one says, "I" and means either their body or their spirit. It is simply the term we use for ourselves. Your question "I don't see where you can conclude the will is implied? What is the scriptural basis?" When a concept is not tacitly expressed, but is clearly in the thought, we call it "implied." Since Paul is not saying, "I accidently keep under my body..." or "I inadvertently keep under my body..." or "I am helpless but to keep under my body..." it is reasonable to assume that he has purposefully made a choice to "keep under my body..." In other words, he is doing it intentionally. Consequently the action of his choosing -- what we mean by the will -- is implied. Since there are no other subjects of the sentence than Paul, we may assume that no one else's will was involved. This is what we mean by the word "imply." In Him, Doc |
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