Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | Country Girl | 128616 | ||
I do agree with you about the OT folks who were looking forward to salvation based on their belief in their God in spite of not knowing the details. However, I must disagree as follows. Quoted from your statement: As for the Gentiles before Jesus they weren't saved...The Gentiles are pagan and therefore not saved. In contrast, Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. We see in this Book from Paul that God does deal with those who live and die without the law. They're judged by how well they lived and abided by the conscience that God gave them, verse 15. I'm thankful that our God truly is a just and loving God. His Judgments are perfect and just. Blessings to you, dear friend. Country Girl |
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2 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 128665 | ||
Country Girl Once again doesn't this put you at odds with Jesus when He said "no one comes to the Father but through Me."? If we can ignorant and make heaven then the best thing a Christian can do in never tell their friend and loved ones about Jesus or the law. That way we don't have to worry whether they accept it or reject it, if we can keep them in ignorance they will be saved. I don't think you meant to say this but to me that is how it came out. EdB |
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3 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | Country Girl | 128671 | ||
No, I don't have a problem with this seeming conflict. I'm not sure but it seems Jesus was applying this principle of "no one comes..." to those who heard His voice then AND all those who read or understand His Message through some other medium forever thereafter. In my mind, since the NT also provides this guidance as cited in Rom 2, this is the only way I can see resolving this seeming conflict. Also this would accommodate our God's Perfect Sense of Justice, which we all face on Judgment Day. How do you resolve the conflict? How do you interpret Paul's guidance in Rom 2? How about if we get a reading of the "no one comes" phrase from our Greek scholars? Tim Moran, could one of you respond? Thanks. Blessings to you. Country Girl PS: By the way, I also noticed in several of your recent posts, you have a tendancy to use "your" when you really want to use "you're." Sorry, it's just the proofreader in me...it's been done to me so much. Just trying to help. |
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4 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | EdB | 128675 | ||
Country Girl My Greek is very limited (read that to mean I studied enough to pass). I have found that the NLT, a translation I have learned to trust, usually brings the completeness of understanding to a passage. Romans 2:1-16 You may be saying, "What terrible people you have been talking about!" But you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you do these very same things. [2] And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. [3] Do you think that God will judge and condemn others for doing them and not judge you when you do them, too? [4] Don't you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don't you care? Can't you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin? … “removed verses 4-8 to comply with 500 word restriction” … [9] There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. [10] But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good—for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. [11] For God does not show favoritism. [12] God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law. [13] For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight. [14] Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong. [15] They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right. [16] The day will surely come when God, by Jesus Christ, will judge everyone's secret life. This is my message. This seems to imply that Gentiles without the Law will be judged by what is in their hearts. Which seems to imply salvation without Christ. However we have the passages Romans 3:23 For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard. John 8:24 That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I say I am, you will die in your sins." Acts 4:12 There is salvation in no one else! There is no other name in all of heaven for people to call on to save them." Hebrews 9:22 In fact, we can say that according to the law of Moses, nearly everything was purified by sprinkling with blood. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. Hebrews 12:14 Try to live in peace with everyone, and seek to live a clean and holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord. John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Therefore I have to believe what this passage is really saying is different than the understanding that comes from the initial reading of it. So I turn to John MacArthur with whom I agree with his take on this. Romans 2:1–16 Having demonstrated the sinfulness of the immoral pagan (1:18–32), Paul presents his case against the religious moralist—Jew or Gentile—by cataloging 6 principles that govern God’s judgment: 1) knowledge (v. 1); 2) truth (vv. 2, 3); 3) guilt (vv. 4, 5); 4) deeds (vv. 6–10); 5) impartiality (vv. 11–15); and 6) motive (v. 16). 2:14 by nature do … the law. Without knowing the written law of God, people in pagan society generally value and attempt to practice its most basic tenets. This is normal for cultures instinctively (see note on v. 15) to value justice, honesty, compassion, and goodness toward others, reflecting the divine law written in the heart. law to themselves. Their practice of some good deeds and their aversion to some evil ones demonstrate an innate knowledge of God’s law—a knowledge that will actually witness against them on the day of judgment. 2:15 work of the law. Probably best understood as “the same works the Mosaic law prescribes.” conscience. Lit. “with knowledge.” That instinctive sense of right and wrong that produces guilt when violated. In addition to an innate awareness of God’s law, men have a warning system that activates when they choose to ignore or disobey that law. Paul urges believers not to violate their own consciences or cause others to (13:5; 1 Cor. 8:7, 12; 10:25, 29; 2 Cor. 5:11; cf. 9:1; Acts 23:1; 24:16), because repeatedly ignoring the conscience’s warnings desensitizes it and eventually silences it (1 Tim. 4:2). See 2 Cor. 1:12; 4:2. MacArthur, J. J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed.) (Ro 2:1). Nashville: Word Pub. So we see MacArthur’s take is Romans 2 is not talking about the pagan but rather about the religionist that sins knowingly and there end will be the same as pagan that ignored God. EdB |
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5 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 128686 | ||
Greetings Ed! Excellent post! If I might summarize, Romans 1-3 demonstrate that all men, without exception, are lost apart from Christ! The point of the passage is not that some might be good enough to be saved, but that all are lost. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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