Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Rowdy | 125844 | ||
I must admit, I don't know how to answer your questions. They do seem to apply to the discussion, but I'm not sure how anyone could answer. Maybe you could help me out by attempting an answer yourself. Please give them a shot. I'd also be interested in seeing your direct answer to my post or question. I'll keep watching. Thanks and God bless. Rowdy |
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2 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Phil12123 | 125872 | ||
The questions that I asked you to ask yourself are all personal for YOU. I can't answer those for YOU. For ME, if I were to honestly and humbly answer them for ME, I could only admit that I still only "know in part" even with the completed canon. I still look through a glass darkly. I still do not know even as also I am known. The full, complete knowledge has not come, for me, and so the "part" or partial or incomplete is what I am presently stuck with, and therefore it has not been done away yet. So, "that which is perfect" need not refer to Jesus (though He IS perfect), but merely the "perfect" or complete or nonpartial knowledge or realm when partial, incomplete supernatural endowments will no longer be necessary or operating. You don't suppose we are going to have any language barriers in heaven, do you? Or the need for an interpreter for believers to communicate with each other? Well, at that point, the gift of interpretation will obviously be done away. Or the gift of healings. Where there is no disease, there is no use for the gift of healings. When we have full, complete health in a new body, no healing will be needed. Until then, how can anyone think the gift of healings could not only be useful for our sick bodies but for confirmation of the preaching of the gospel, as in Philip's case in Acts 8:6-8. Now back to the question of the age of miracles. If it has past, and I'm not willing to admit that yet, it is NOT because "that which is perfect" has already come. If God is not presently operating in believers, through the supernatural gifts HE sovereignly and graciously gives them, and I repeat IF, it is not because they have been done away by the coming of the perfect. It may be because of sin or lack of faith or some other reason, but not the other. Phil |
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3 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Rowdy | 125879 | ||
By the way, Welcome to the Forum, it's always good to see newcomers. I have to agree with you, this is one of the toughest verses in the Bible and one of the most controversial. I guess like it's been stated by many in past, it all comes to a point as to the meaning of just is "that which is Perfect." In my opinion, that discussion is pretty well cited on the Forum and you've seen my opinion. My question to you here would be, What do we use as a "yardstick" to measure these modern day miracles, speaking in tongues, faith healing and all other miraculous powers? Naturally, most everyone responds with "Well of course, silly, we should use the Bible" but I'd like to nail it down to specifics. How would you descibe a modern day miracle so we could be assured that it truly does come from God and not as a figment of someone's imagination? God does expect us to test the spirits to see if they really are the real McCoy. Take for example, speaking in tongues, how do we determine if it is truly is a God given gift, a miraculous power? God bless. Rowdy |
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4 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Phil12123 | 125888 | ||
Rowdy, the first thing a person has to come to grips with is your original question---has the age of miracles passed? If it has, then the unavoidable conclusion is anything miraculous is not of God. Other the other hand, if that age has not passed, then of course what God does miraculously through the gifts should line up with the instruction Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to give the church in his letters, especially 1 Corinthians, which is about all we have on the subject. But another problem may exist, in that, even if some operation of the gift of tongues, for example, is not strictly in line with instructions in 1 Cor. 14, can we really conclude that it was not of God, or at worst, of the devil? Didn't Paul have to correct that church in some of what was going on in that respect? Did he yell at them and say what they were doing was of the devil? Was it not the Holy Spirit operating, not the devil, and yet they still needed instruction such as (1) you need an interpreter too, or (2) do it one at a time, etc.? Not sure I can figure that out. If you have any thoughts there, let me know. The bottom line though is that in everything, God (particularly Jesus, John 16:14) should be glorified. And we are told God is not the author of confusion, so there should be no confusion. Finally, if it is truly a God-given gift, a miraculous power, it will be something that the person could not have done on his own but only by the power of God, Who should therefore get all the honor and praise, not the individual. Don't know if that answers your question, but those are my thoughts for the moment. Phil |
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5 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Rowdy | 126084 | ||
I've stated it a couple of times on the Forum but it bears repeating. I do believe very strongly in the age of miracles. We're living in that age at this very moment and probably will continue to do so until the Day of Judgment. What am I saying, you ask? I'm saying I believe very strongly that only God or the Godhead practice miracles and impart them directly to the receipient here on earth, usually at the behest of someone praying. I'm only trying to inspire folks to comply with the Bible and "test the spirits in everything," most especially when people claim to have some miraculous power. The only possible standard God's people would use in testing the spirits would be the Word of God. So with speaking in tongues, are all the listeners able to understand like as done on the day at Pentacost? Did these folks speaking EVER have an ocassion to learn the language or was it truly bestowed on them in a supernatural manner? Miraculous healing must be more than healing of backpains and headaches. Are severed body parts restored? Are there lepers healed with new-born skin? Are those born crippled able to leap for joy immediately after being healed? Are those born blind able to see perfectly and immediately after being healed? Is life restored to a person after several hours/days after true, complete, clinical death? And of course, all of these miracles of healing must be done without any assistance from modern medicine or equipment of any kind. So, you see, I'm just advocating evaluating the miralces in today's world by the same standard that we see portrayed in the Bible. Now I know one classic response is that the quality or level of healing or hearing/understanding miraculous speech is dependent on the spiritual maturity of the recipient BUT that is simply NOT the Biblical way to look at the subject. Never, not even once in all the Bible, did the spiritual condition of the recipient ever impede the execution or the quality of the miracle in the Bible. True enough, the maturity of the disciples before Christ's death prevented their being effective as they readily admitted but not after His resurrection. At any rate, I must insist as we all should, we must look at this matter carefully and make certain the miracles of today truly do come from God because if they come from any other source, they should be ignored as non-existent. Why am I so insistent on this point? I'm glad you ask. Again, throughout the NT, there was only two instances where christians manifested miraculous powers WITHOUT the gift of "the laying on of the Apostles hands," in Acts 2 and Acts 10. We all know Acts 2 was when the church was established and Acts 10 was the endowment of power to Cornelius and his household for the single express purpose of impressing on Apostle Peter and the rest of the Apostles that the Gospel was for the whole world and not just for the Jews. So, the conclusion is that only the Apostles and those on whom they "laid their hands" manifested these miraculous powers. Further, we can conclude that since none of these folks are here living any longer, there can be no one with such God given powers. Any such miraculous powers must be from another source. However in an effort to maintain an open mind, I would like to witness an actual miracle at some point in my lifetime. So if you know of anyone who can actually perform miracles like those described above, I'd certainly like to hear about it. Hope this helps. God bless. Rowdy |
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6 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Phil12123 | 126089 | ||
Rowdy, thank you for your more complete explanation of where you're coming from. If you stated it before, I missed it. Having said that, I am now puzzled. You start out saying we are living in the age of miracles today, but then you conclude by saying miraculous powers today "must be from another source [other than God]." Well, the only other source of miraculous powers is the devil or demons, right? So, your bottom line is, unless you can be convinced by being shown someone who performs the miracles you described, all miracles today are demonic, right? And what if you were indeed shown such miracles? With your presuppositions, how would not still conclude that such miracles "must be from another source"? Help me out here, if I'm misconstruing what you have said. Phil |
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7 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Rowdy | 126090 | ||
I have to apologize. I re-read my post and I guess I wasn't perfectly clear. What I meant to say is that I do believe in miracles from God in today's world but he dispenses them at His discretion, probably with some subtlety but directly to the recipients. You have probably heard of the person who goes to the doctor and gets the proverbial and horrible final briefing from that doctor about his having terminal cancer and he's got a short time to live, maybe a few months. Six months later, he shows back in the doctor's office and low and behold the cancer is in complete remission and now it looks like the person will live for several years. That's a pretty clear miracle. Or the person that walks away from a car accident when the car looks like a crumpled up paper wad. Yes, my friend, we do live in an age of miracles but directly from God to the recipient, no human 3rd party intervening or channeling God's power like in the first century with Apostles. I'm saying that God wants us to graduate from this love affair with this physcial world and learn to prefer His Spiritual World BUT to wait for His calling us Home to get away from this world. We must re-read 1 Cor 13 and learn to prefer love, God like love, unconditional love for our fellow man and for our God and Father and we should do so in preference to the other Spiritual Gifts that God bestows on us. I'm convinced that he never meant for man to be able to dispense these kinds of miracles after the Apostles died along with those on whom they laid their hands. Otherwise, in this world of extreme spiritual immaturity, people would end up worshipping such beings like they tried in the first century. No, our God wants us to come to Him, based on our faith and not on what we see and experience. If we were to actually experience a miracle at the hands of a mere man like the first century then it lessons our faith and our dependence on Him. I hope this clears up this misunderstanding. God bless. Rowdy |
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8 | Age of Miracles - Past or Present | Bible general Archive 2 | Phil12123 | 126093 | ||
I see your point, but don't you think God knew from the beginning of the Apostolic age that to give certain members in the Body "the gifts of healing" (1 Cor.12:9) or "the working of miracles" (v.10) might result in "worshipping such beings," as you say? Is the solution, remove the gift to avoid such improper worship, or instead, give immediate and adequate rebuke and counsel, as Peter did in Acts 10:26? Should the eye be blind so that it does not receive too much appreciation? I fear this thinking leads to the total removal of ANY man having ANY particular gift that is supernatural or miraculous, including knowledge and wisdom. That's like shooting the dog because he may have fleas. Phil |
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