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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 95965 | ||
Part 2 'Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? 'If the Rapture "has already taken place", then the resurrection has already taken place. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 writes of the day when the final "trumpet" for believers will be blown and mortality will put on immortality. In this passage, he links the Rapture with the resurrection of believers. In other words, when the Rapture takes place, the resurrection occurs. 'Those who insist that the events of Matthew 24 are history and say that the "generation that sees these things" was the generation concurrent with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago, must of necessity show that the resurrection has also taken place. The only way that is possible is to spiritualize the text by saying that the resurrection was a spiritual one and not a physical one. 'Moderate (or partial) preterist, R.C. Sproul recognizes this when he says, To maintain that these events [the Olivet teaching] were indeed fulfilled in the first century, one must interpret the relevant passages in a way that makes early fulfillment possible. The most severe obstacle [to that] is the absence of any historical record that the rapture of the living and the resurrection of the dead occurred. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 161) 'There are two serious problems with understanding the resurrection as a "spiritual" event. R.C. Sproul says, The first difficulty is that it [Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15] involves propositions and assertions that can be neither verified nor falsified empirically. ... if one announces or predicts things that will take place in the arena of real history involving physical reality, then empirical verification becomes relevant and crucial...It is unfortunate that the apostle failed to alert the Corinthians-and us, by extension-that he was speaking of a secret, hidden, spiritual resurrection. His language certainly suggests something else, particularly as Paul so clearly conjoins the resurrection of our bodies with the resurrection of Christ's body. The resurrected Christ is the firstfruits of all who will be raised. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 162) 'And what was the resurrected body of Jesus like? First, the tomb was empty. In other words, there was a physical body in it but on the day of His resurrection, it became empty. A body had departed from it. Second, he had a glorified body. It was different from His previous mortal body, but it was the same body. Third, Jesus was visible to the disciples until the time He ascended and was touched by them and ate with them. Christ's resurrected body was a physical body, not a spiritualized one. 'A theological problem with a spiritualized understanding of the resurrection is likewise addressed by R.C. Sproul - If a spiritual body cannot be seen, touched, or handled, is it a body at all? It is one thing to say that our resurrected bodies will be spiritiual bodies, but quite another to imply that our resurrected bodies will be merely spirits. The Bible speaks of spiritual bodies. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 164) 'A common problem among interpreters of the Bible is that of "shifting gears". If a person approaches his interpretation of the Bible with, for example, a face value hermeneutic, then it is critical that he remain consistent with his approach. However, many often "flip flop" in their interpretation approach to maintain a preconceived understanding of a text. An example of this is the above. Preterists interpret "this generation" in the simple sense as meaning the generation concurrent with Christ and then suddenly "shift gears" and apply a figurative approach to arrive at a spiritualized understanding of the Rapture and the resurrection. That is an inconsistent hermeneutic and leads to error. 'When spiritualization is introduced into one's interpretation, Pandora's box is opened and various meanings can be understood. The only way the integrity of the Author/author's wording and meaning can be preserved is by taking Scripture at face value. Taking Scripture at face value means that the student of Scripture recognizes the difference between what can be called the "simple sense" of a passage and what is understood as a literal understanding. A literal understanding includes the examination of the historical/cultural and lexical/syntactical considerations. It also recognizes symbols and figures of speech and realizes there is a referent for them. For further information on hermeneutical principles, see the "links" section of this website for an explanation. (Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? By Rev. Bill Lee-Warner) (http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0003.html) - - - - - - - - - - - - - --Radioman2 |
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2 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Suede67 | 95972 | ||
Radioman, ….'If the Rapture "has already taken place", then the resurrection has already taken place. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 writes of the day when the final "trumpet" for believers will be blown and mortality will put on immortality. In this passage, he links the Rapture with the resurrection of believers. In other words, when the Rapture takes place, the resurrection occurs…. Correct. But let’s fill in the details. Paul tells the Corinthians, the ones actually alive in the 1st century, that the “rapture”/resurrection will take place within THEIR lifetime, not 2000 years and counting. 1 Cor 15:51,52 ‘Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised.’ So we can see that Paul tells people that were alive that some of them would NOT physical die, but would actually live through the rapture/resurrection. ….'Those who insist that the events of Matthew 24 are history and say that the "generation that sees these things" was the generation concurrent with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago, must of necessity show that the resurrection has also taken place. The only way that is possible is to spiritualize the text by saying that the resurrection was a spiritual one and not a physical one…. Ok here ya go. 1 Cor 15:42-44 “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.” There, that wasn’t so hard now was it? …'And what was the resurrected body of Jesus like? First, the tomb was empty. In other words, there was a physical body in it but on the day of His resurrection, it became empty. A body had departed from it. Second, he had a glorified body. It was different from His previous mortal body, but it was the same body. Third, Jesus was visible to the disciples until the time He ascended and was touched by them and ate with them. Christ's resurrected body was a physical body, not a spiritualized one… Jesus had to come back physically to one, prove he could, and two finish teaching the apostles. We do not have to fulfill these things, there is no reason why we need a physical body. …If a spiritual body cannot be seen, touched, or handled, is it a body at all? It is one thing to say that our resurrected bodies will be spiritiual bodies, but quite another to imply that our resurrected bodies will be merely spirits. The Bible speaks of spiritual bodies… It sure does. Look at angels all throughout the Bible. Spiritual beings indeed, but they could be seen, they could eat, and they could sleep. Look at the angels that come to Lot. ….However, many often "flip flop" in their interpretation approach to maintain a preconceived understanding of a text…. Something Futurists are quite guilty of as well. So much for the “Beam in the eye” verse. ….An example of this is the above. Preterists interpret "this generation" in the simple sense as meaning the generation concurrent with Christ and then suddenly "shift gears" and apply a figurative approach to arrive at a spiritualized understanding of the Rapture and the resurrection… But with 1 Cor 15:42-44 (listed above) we can see that Preterists ARE consistent as far as “this Generation” and with the spiritual understanding of the Rapture and the Resurrection. And we can now see that Futurists are the ones who are not. ….The only way the integrity of the Author/author's wording and meaning can be preserved is by taking Scripture at face value. Taking Scripture at face value means that the student of Scripture recognizes the difference between what can be called the "simple sense" of a passage and what is understood as a literal understanding…. Ok, let’s do that RIGHT now. 1 Cor 15:42-44 “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY.” NAS Rev 1:1 “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God have him to show to his bond servants, the things which must SOON TAKE PLACE…” NAS And those are just a small handful. Shall I list some more to be taken literally? Take care, SUEDE |
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3 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Radioman2 | 96010 | ||
pre-, mid-, post-trib rapture, premill, preterism, predestination, election, cessation of the charismatic gifts, baptism for adults or infants... 'Secondary Non-Essentials 'The [following] subjects . . . whether affirmed or denied have no bearing on the status of a person before God. They are opinions, various positions held. Unfortunately, it is in these non essentials that many denominational differences result. 'SUBJECT '- Predestination, election, limited atonement, and free will '- Communion every week, monthly, or quarterly, etc. '- Saturday or Sunday Worship '- Pre, mid, post trib rapture. '- Premill, Amill, post millenialism, preterism. '- Continuation or cessation of the charismatic gifts '- Baptism for adults or infants 'IMPORTANCE Secondary Non-Essentials Any of them can be denied, or affirmed, and regeneration is not in question. 'RELIGIOUS GROUPS 'Denomination Division Denominational differences often result due to these issues.' ____________________ Adapted from Doctrine Grid (www.carm.org/doctrine/grid.htm) --Radioman2 [nonessentials] |
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4 | The second coming of Jesus | Bible general Archive 2 | Suede67 | 96055 | ||
Radioman, Very good! Yet I find it odd then that Preterists are attacked and labeled as heretics. Pretty hypocritical of some. Oh well, it matters not to me. Take care, SUEDE |
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