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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 108094 | ||
Greetings Tom! I do not consider the timing of the rapture to be one of those 'essential' doctrines which we must agree upon. However, I did want to set the record straight concerning the claim that no one ever taught or believed in a pre-trib rapture until the 1800's. The following is a previous post of mine on this topic: ************************************** Response........................................ Greetings Kalos! From the reading I have done, it seems that post-tribulationists have tried very hard to make it seem that a pre-tribulational rapture is a recent deveolopment in theology. However, there is evidence dating from between 300-600 a.d. of a pre-tribulational rapture. This evidence is found in a document called "Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon." Here is a quote which discusses the nature of this document: ******************************************** "The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin." (http://millennianet.com/atpro4se/ancient.html) ********************************************** The relevant quotation is quoted below: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)" The true authorship and the quality of the document are not really that important for this discussion. The important part is that we have a clear pre-tribulational statement dating over 1000 years before Darby or Margaret McDonald. Thus, the belief itself has been around for much longer than 150 years. I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | tomsweetstir | 108251 | ||
Tim, this is sort of separate from the previous post I sent. You know Greek better than anyone I know. Please, what does the Greek word that Paul used here mean? I noticed it is only used in the NT four (4) times. EACH time, it deals with a situation of going to meet someone of great importance who is on their way to be with you, and then returning to where YOU were before. Matt. 25:1 and 6 – the story of the virgins who went out to MEET the bridegroom who was coming TO them. They didn’t leave to GO with Him. They went to MEET Him. Acts 28:15 – Paul was traveling TOWARDS Rome. When the brethren in Rome heard Paul was on his way, those in Rome came out to MEET them. Verse 16 explains, “When we came to Rome…” ! Thess. 4:16 – The dead and those alive “hear” the sound of the LAST trumpet and we MEET Jesus in the air, and according to the use of that word MEET – we return back here. So, Tim, WHY would Paul use that term IF we would be staying UP there somewhere? The tribulation is FINISHED when 1 Cor 15:52, and Rev 11:15, and other verses happen. We must agree that the LAST and SEVENTH are one and the same. The rest of Rev 11 explains the results. This world ravaged by Satan passes into the total possession of our Lord and He shall reign forever. THEN WHAT? The time comes for the dead to be judged AND for rewards to be given. And some teach that those rewards will be handed out while the earth is undergoing the tribulation. Wrong. OUR GOD WAS NOT POWERLESS to protect His people from “tribulation” before Moses led them out of Egypt. And I believe HE IS the same today, yesterday and forever. According to my expository dictionary of NT words, the word MEET is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcoming of a newly arrived dignitary.” (Moulton, Greek Text. Gram. Vol. 1. p.14) So, Tim, WHY would Paul use that term IF we would be staying UP there somewhere? Bless you, Tim Tom |
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3 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 108253 | ||
Greetings Tom! The word you are referring to is the noun 'apantesis'. It is found 4 times in the Majority text: Mt. 25:1, 25:6, Acts 28:15, and 1 Thess. 4:17. It is only found 3 times in the UBS text (a different word is used in Mt. 25:1). However, I don't believe that anything in the definition of the word mandates a return to the same location. It would make sense in most circumstances, since the word usually referred to a public greeting of an important visitor. However, the verbal form of this word is used in the New Testament in instances where the one 'meet' did not return with those who 'meet' him. For instance, the 10 lepers of Luke 17:12 did not return with Jesus, but they did 'meet' Him. Why would believers stay 'up' there? This is a long topic, but allow me to give you my short answer. I see Daniel's 70th week as being divided into two time periods of 3 1/2 years each. The first is a time of tribulation, which I believe that the church will endure. But, this tribulation is not primarily directed at the church. Rather, it's primary focus is Israel. The second 3 1/2 year period (following the rapture in my understanding) is a time of God's wrath. God will pour out His wrath on the earth during this time. Of course, we are not subject to God's wrath. So, we will be at the Wedding Supper during this time period, preparing for the time when we will return with Him to rule and reign with Him for a thousand years. This is just my short answer! :-) So, the staying 'up' there is only for a short time. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | tomsweetstir | 108284 | ||
Tim, thank you for your explanations. And also, thank you for your continual courtesy demonstrated in your giving me a “warm, from the heart” reply. Your gentle spirit and mannerism is admirable. Not JUST to me, but to all with whom you share. The real impressive part is your never changing easy and mild methods of your replies to those you KNOW will disagree with you. Reading your postings over the months, you come across with an even temperament (although on a very, very few occasions, your edges might have been a mite scratchy – generally justifiably so, I add). :) Many regulars, newcomers, and “hit and miss” people like me could stand to “catch your spirit.” May you and yours receive all the Lord has for you, Tom |
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5 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 108299 | ||
Greetings Tom! Thanks again for the kind words! :-) I try really hard not to be scratchy! :-) You would never believe how many times I have typed something, then thought better of it and hit the delete button! Do you want to know my 'secret'? I just try to remember not to take everything too personally. Well, I have to go to work now! ;-( Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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