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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | REX | 108062 | ||
1 COR.15:52 It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven: "The whole world has now become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever." Recently I have started a study on the rapture with an open mind. I have aproched this subject as if I have never heard a study on it before. The scripture listed above is the foundation that I started with. The question I want to answer is: at what point will the rapture take place?, with the tribulation pariod being the referance point. So far the only thing I can prove from scripture is, that the Christians will go through the tribulation. I'm not through researching so this is not my final conclusion. I started the research by searching the scripture on when the last trumpet would be blown. Can anyone tell me where the pre-rapture theory came from? I need this info. to complete my study. THANK YOU REX |
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2 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | tomsweetstir | 108080 | ||
REX, your first question: “at what point will the rapture take place? with the tribulation period being the reference point”, is easy. The full tribulation period precedes Christ coming again for His people. Your claim: “I have approached this subject as if I have never heard a study on it before,” will help you grasp the truth. Too many have read the footnotes in their Bibles, which often drastically contradict Scripture. For instance, Scofield Reference Bible’s footnote concerning Matt 13:40, states: “At the end of the age (v. 40) the tares are set apart for the burning, but FIRST the wheat is gathered into the barn.” (Emphasis mine.) HOWEVER, Scripture states just the opposite. Matt 13:30 “Gather together FIRST the tares for destruction…” Note WHEN this happens – “At the end of the age”. Not seven years or 3 and a half years before the end, but AT the end of the age. Your last question, “Can anyone tell me where the pre-rapture theory came from?” is also easy. For 1800 years, no believers ever taught, thought, or wrote about any such thing such as those who claim “rapture” assume. Justin Martyr (100-165), Irenaeus (130-202), Tertullian (160-240), Hippolytus (170-236), Cypian (200-258), Lactantius (260-330), Luther, Wycliff, Tyndale, Huss, Knox, the Newtons, Wesley, Lataimer, Calvin, etc. etc. ALL WROTE that the church would suffer at the hands of the antichrist. From the days of the apostles until 1830, the message that Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul taught was what the church believed. Margaret McDonald gave a “prophecy” early in 1830 in Richard Irving’s church. In 1840, the book, “The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets In the Catholic Church" included her “revelation”. It was authored by Robert Newton. It wasn’t long before this "new revelation of a secret rapture” from Hell's pit spread. Some members of The Plymouth Brethren accepted it and some rejected it. It wasn’t long before the “two parts of Jesus' second coming” was instituted into Bible footnotes. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882, sometimes called, “the founder of modern dispensationalism” got Satan’s ball rolling. Even though Godly men, such as George Muller, William Booth, Charles Spurgeon, etc. challenged the unscriptural doctrine, Cylus Scofield (1843-1921) picked up the ball and now, those who deny what Scripture teaches in easy to understand language, discount truth in favor of some “secret rapture.” I find it interesting that believers of "that lie" refer to it as “the Pre-trib THEORY”. It is believed in spite of all the evidence that disproves the "THEORY". Oswald J. Smith USED to believe the rapture lie, because he was taught it at conferences and in Bible School. In “Tribulation or Rapture-Which?” , Smith wrote “…….when I began to search the scriptures for myself I discovered that there is not a single verse in the Bible that upholds the pre-tribulation theory." There is so much more good, solid information out there, if you desire, ask. May He guide you into ALL truth, Tom |
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3 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 108094 | ||
Greetings Tom! I do not consider the timing of the rapture to be one of those 'essential' doctrines which we must agree upon. However, I did want to set the record straight concerning the claim that no one ever taught or believed in a pre-trib rapture until the 1800's. The following is a previous post of mine on this topic: ************************************** Response........................................ Greetings Kalos! From the reading I have done, it seems that post-tribulationists have tried very hard to make it seem that a pre-tribulational rapture is a recent deveolopment in theology. However, there is evidence dating from between 300-600 a.d. of a pre-tribulational rapture. This evidence is found in a document called "Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon." Here is a quote which discusses the nature of this document: ******************************************** "The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin." (http://millennianet.com/atpro4se/ancient.html) ********************************************** The relevant quotation is quoted below: "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." -Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627)" The true authorship and the quality of the document are not really that important for this discussion. The important part is that we have a clear pre-tribulational statement dating over 1000 years before Darby or Margaret McDonald. Thus, the belief itself has been around for much longer than 150 years. I hope this helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | tomsweetstir | 108249 | ||
Please heart my heart here, Tim. I have the deepest respect for you, your ministry, your wisdom, your character, your faith, etc. That said, and meant ---- My brother Tim, I don’t agree with your opening sentence – “I do not consider the timing of the rapture to be one of those 'essential' doctrines which we must agree upon.” I admit that Heb 6:1-2 exhorts us on leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ to go ON to perfection; not laying again the FOUNDATIONS of …. resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. But, I am sure you will heartily agree with me when I state “the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment" ARE a portion of that foundation. And a faulty foundation is sure to make everything else that rests upon it to fail and fall. However, I will agree that the belief of pre-trip rapture itself has been around for much longer than 150 years. It was somewhat what Paul had trouble with as expressed in 2 Tim 2:17-18. And verse 19 refers to “the foundation”, signifying ITS importance to get this “doctrine” right. When I saw REX’s question, HOW could I not respond? Many people who don’t verbally participate, read this forum. Am I to merely close my eye to teaching that is so blatantly unscriptural? REX’s question was about the origin of the pre-trib rapture theory. Thank you, Tim, for taking the effort and time sharing what you expressed about the “pre-trib” statement written in the third century. In a previous post to Rex, I listed numerous well-known and respected writers who, through the centuries refute the pre-trib notion. So, there must have a “REASON” for them to teach how Christians would have to undergo the whole tribulation, otherwise why would they waste words? I wasn’t insinuating the pre-trib teaching “originated” in the 1800. I was merely giving facts concerning where “the rapture before the trib” TOOK SOLID ROOT. Much like the JW’s - the pre-trib “doctrine” changes. When confronted with Scriptures that “cancel” their theory, “pre-tribbers” attempt to use another portion of Scripture, (one that likewise disproves it) rather than accepting what the “first confrontational” Scripture exposes. I BELIEVE IN THE RAPTURE!!! I also understand what the word means. As I am sure you well know, it comes from the Latin word “rapere” which merely means to take away, or seize. This WILL indeed happen. Jesus' prayer in John 17, where He specifically asked His Father NOT to REMOVE them from the world, but to protect them, would be the only prayer that the Father REFUSED, IF the pre OR mid-tribs are right. Me? I'm going with Jesus KNOWS His Father will "heed to the prayer" and allow us to "pass through the fires and not be burned." According to the pre-trib AND mid-trib theories, they both claim, when the Lord comes in the clouds, the trumpet will blow, the dead will arise, and those still alive will be seized up and we all will MEET the Lord in the air. THEN WHAT HAPPENS? Tom |
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5 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 108252 | ||
Greetings Tom! Thanks for the kind words! I am actually not a pre-tribber myself! I would hold to what is called a pre-wrath position. Like you, I don't find any justification in Scripture for Christian avoiding tribulation, but I do find justification for Christians avoiding God's wrath. :-) Anyway, I just wanted to note that historically the pre-trib position has been around for quite sometime. P.S. - By the way, the reason I don't consider the timing to be an essential doctrine is because the rapture will happen when it happens, regardless of when we think that might be! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | tomsweetstir | 108282 | ||
Tim, your P.S. comment reminded me of dear friend from years long gone. Thank you. Whenever anyone asked this Bible-teacher friend if he was pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, he lips would creak up under his bushy white moustache. With a twinkle in his eyes he would whisper, “I’m pan-trib.” Blessings, Tom P.S. “Pan-trib” means – Whenever Jesus returns, everything will pan out OK. :) |
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