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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | REX | 108062 | ||
1 COR.15:52 It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven: "The whole world has now become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever." Recently I have started a study on the rapture with an open mind. I have aproched this subject as if I have never heard a study on it before. The scripture listed above is the foundation that I started with. The question I want to answer is: at what point will the rapture take place?, with the tribulation pariod being the referance point. So far the only thing I can prove from scripture is, that the Christians will go through the tribulation. I'm not through researching so this is not my final conclusion. I started the research by searching the scripture on when the last trumpet would be blown. Can anyone tell me where the pre-rapture theory came from? I need this info. to complete my study. THANK YOU REX |
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2 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | sdtaylor99 | 108066 | ||
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. Look at the context of this verse. It may help you out. The voice that John heard told him that he would "shew thee things which must be hereafter." The question that needs to be ask her is, "hereafter what?" In chapter 2 and 3 of Revelation, we are told about the church ages, so the voice has to be talking about the things after the church age. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 speaks of the Holy Spirit being taken out of this world. When the Holy Spirit is taken away, the believer will go to heaven with the Holy Spirit, becuase we have the promise that God will never leave us, nor forsake us in Hebrews 13:5 The church is not mentioned again in Revelation until we see the church coming back with Jesus in Revelation 19:7-14. This tells me that when we leave this world, the tribulation will start and then we will come back with Christ when he comes to fight against the army of the Beast. I hope this has been helpful to you. Keep growing in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. |
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3 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | kalos | 108071 | ||
'The misrepresentation of John being the church. 'It is said that the church is not present during the events of Revelation because in chapter 4:1, John is called to "come up here". John is said to be a picture of the church, and therefore it (the church) is in heaven during the days of the 70th week of Daniel. But is that a valid inference? Nowhere in all of the New Testament is there warrant to apply the understanding that John represents the church in Rev. 4:1. The context clearly implies that "John" refers to... John, and no one else. He is simply given a heavenly perspective of what is going on behind the visible world and what will take place during the last days. Nothing else. To say otherwise is to grasp at straws to try to support a hollow argument." - - - - - - - - - - - - - 'Why is the church not mentioned in Revelation 4-22? 'By Rev. Charles Cooper 'It is assumed by pretribulationists that the church is not present on earth during the events spoken of in the majority of the book of Revelation. This thinking is based primarily on the absence of the word "church" from Revelation 3:22 to Revelation 20:16. If the "church" is not mentioned, it is concluded, she must have been raptured prior to the events written about. Further, it is assumed that the invitation to the apostle John in Revelation 4:1 to "come up here" is a picture of the rapture of the church preceding the events of the 70th week. 'It is important to examine these assumptions because they clearly attempt to place the rescue of the righteous (the rapture) before Daniel's 70th week and not after. If that is so, it should be clearly taught in Scripture. 'For several compelling reasons, it is a false conclusion to assume that the church will be raptured before the 70th week of Daniel (and for that reason is not mentioned between chapters 4 and 20): '1. The plain teaching of Scripture. Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:3-31), outlines the sequence of events in the last days relative to the church. Verses 3-14 parallel Revelation chapter 6 and depict those events from the beginning of the 70th week to the rapture. Then, in verses 15-28, He focuses on the middle time period of that future week (the final 7 years) and emphasizes two key events: (a) a time of great persecution, and (b) the "cut[ting] short" of "those days" of persecution for "the sake of the elect". Finally, in verses 29-31, He highlights what it is that will "cut short" that persecution, the rescue of the elect (the rapture). 'Paul echoes this same teaching in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians 2:1-12: (a) the apostasy comes first, (b) the revealing of the man of lawlessness, (c) the "challenge" to all who will not bow down to him and worship him "as being God", and (d) the coming of the Lord to "gather together" believers unto Himself. 'In Revelation 6-8, we have the same sequence repeated: (a) the 70th week begins, (b) the pressure builds [seals 1-3], (c) the midpoint [seals 4-5] and apex of the persecution (against the "saints") arrives, (d) the "cut[ting] short" of that persecution with the same cosmic announcement [seal 6] as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:29-31 followed by the rapture of the saints (Revelation 7:9ff). There is absolutely no teaching either by hint or by direct instruction that the church will not be present during the 70th week of Daniel. (...) '5. The argument from silence. It is maintained that since the word "church" isn't used again from 3:22 until 22:6, she is absent from the events unfolding during that time period. That's an argument from silence. If we apply that same argument to the gospel of John, we have to conclude that the gospel of John isn't for the church because the word church isn't even mentioned in all of its chapters. Can that be true? 'The overwhelming evidence is that the church is indeed present during the 70th week of Daniel regardless of whether the word is used or not. What one believes must be squarely built on what the Bible clearly says, not on what we might like it to say for whatever reason. What we believe about the last days will have tremendous implications for our lives should we enter those days. Let us be Bereans, searching to see if these things are so. (Acts 17:11)' (http://www.solagroup.org/articles/faqs/faq_0027.html) |
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4 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | sdtaylor99 | 108079 | ||
Most people use Matthew 24, but they overlook this verse. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. According to the Scripture, the elect are those that are in Christ and they are predestinate to become like Christ. Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. So here we see that our days will be shortened. |
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5 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | kalos | 108115 | ||
RAPTURE, THE The Last Day "Christ's gathering together, the deliverance of, and rescue of the true living church (by His angelic "reapers") to Himself in the clouds at His second coming (parousia), an event that occurs on the last day when the day of the Lord commences, between the sixth seal (the sign of the end of the age ) and the seventh seal (the day of the Lord). The Rapture cannot occur until sometime during the second half of the seventieth week , when God cuts short the great tribulation by Antichrist . "But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows." PREWRATH RAPTURE, THE "The position that the true church will be raptured when the great tribulation by Antichrist, inspired by Satan, is cut short by God's day-of-the-Lord wrath, (Matt. 24:22) which will occur between the sixth and seventh seals of Revelation, sometime during the second half of the seventieth week. (cf. Rev. 7:9-17) The persecution associated with the great tribulation of Antichrist is viewed as the wrath of Satan, whereas the events that follow beginning with the seventh seal, are considered the wrath of God."(http://www.signministries.org/glossary.htm |
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6 | RAPTURE: PRE-TRIBULATION OR NOT? | Bible general Archive 2 | tomsweetstir | 108144 | ||
Kalos, help me get this straight, please. It seems that you ARE claiming, as I pointed out in my previous post to REX, that Jesus’ explanations to His disciples concerning the “resurrection” in Matt 13 and Matt 24 are INCORRECT? How can you change what Jesus taught about the tares (children of the wicked one) being removed FIRST, before the wheat (the children of the kingdom)? He explained His angels will FIRST REMOVE the tare FROM the wheat. Just like He said in Matthew 24:38-41 “….BEFORE the flood THEY were eating and drinking … and knew not until the flood came and took THEM all away” “They” and “them”, who WERE TAKEN do not refer to Noah and family. They are the “children of the wicked one”, according to the parallel of Matthew 13. Jesus continued by stating … “there shall be two in the field; the one will be removed, and the other left.” WHO WILL BE “REMOVED”, according to what Jesus declared in Matt 13? Concerning the flood, WHO didn’t know about the flood until it came and TOOK THEM away? One answer fits all questions. The wicked. Did David lie, or was he deceived when he wrote in Psalm 37:35-36? “I have seen brutal people abuse others … suddenly THEY disappeared! I looked, but THEY were gone and no longer there.” Vs 38- “But not a trace will be left of the wicked or their families.” John 17:15 is where Jesus specifically prayed that God WOULDN’T do what you claim God will do. I love what it says, and what those words mean. Checking out some of Greek in this verse actually cancels the “rapture THEORY. “Father, I don’t ask you to TAKE them OUT of the world, but KEEP them safe from the evil one.” “Take” (airo) is defined as “to take UP”; “to LIFT”. “Keep” (tereo) is defined as “to guard from loss or injury by keeping your eye upon them. It implies a fortress or full military line of apparatus.” Ask anybody "the reason for a rapture", and the answer screams out “To save us from the tribulation.” 2 Tim 3:5 fits too many “Christians” in this land of ours. “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof …” Trembling they whine, “Surely God doesn’t expect us to suffer at the hands of the antichrist. He knows how BAD it will get.” Since Abel, men, women and children have suffered at the hands of the children of the wicked one. All of a sudden, God is going to yank up into the clouds all who have placed their trust in Him. Talk about “trust”. Scriptures PROMISES in John 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you might have peace. In the world you SHALL HAVE tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” Your comment – “in the clouds at His second coming (parousia") raised a question NO rapture follower has provided a REAL answer concerning what Rev 2:4-6 expresses compared to 1 Thess 4:15-17. You claim that “The DEAD shall rise, and we which are alive shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” happens BEFORE the end of the tribulation. What about those who are supposedly martyred AFTER the “rapture”. Those who were killed for not worshiping the beast, nor taking his mark, are said to be resurrected AFTER Satan is bound for 1,000 years. Please carefully read, Rev. 20:5 “This is the FIRST resurrection.” FIRST? What “number” do you give the resurrection BEFORE the “FIRST resurrection”, the one that supposedly took place at the “rapture”? Tom |
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