Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Do Jesus and Paul agree on salv by faith | NT general Archive 1 | reilly1041 | 81151 | ||
I am a relatively new Bible reader and one big question keeps hitting me -- I see a difference between Jesus' words on heaven and Paul's. Let me explain... Paul says "If you confess w/your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Rom 10:9, TLB) And also, "For it is by grace you have been saved thru faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of works..." (Eph 2:8, NKJV) But I don't see Jesus talking that way in the gospels. For example, in Mt 7:21, Jesus said that "Not all people who sound religious are really godly. they may refer to me as Lord, but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Fathers in heaven". And again, in Mt 5:22, He says "if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell". See also Luke 12:35-49, where He discusses being prepared about his coming. If the servant isn't behaving well, the master will tear the servant apart and banish him. These statements of Jesus seem to indicate that much more than simply announcing and believing in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God is required for the Kingdom of Heaven. He clearly states that the key issue is whether you obey his Father in heaven. Is this to be interpreted as living a good life, following the commandments, etc., as additional requirements for heaven? Does that jive w/Paul's statements? Note that it's not that I'm against trying to live a good, holy life, but this seems to lead down the road of salvation by faith-and-works. Please help me understand this better, because my life was changed by Eph 2:8-9, but this is confusing me. Thanks! |
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2 | Do Jesus and Paul agree on salv by faith | NT general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 81152 | ||
Part II " There are works and there are works! A closer look at St. Paul's letters to the Romans, Galatians and Ephesians is necessary in order to understand what he is talking about when he refers to "works of the law" and "works" in the broader sense. "Works of the law" is a technical term, which refers to the Mosaic Law and all it's rituals, but especially circumcision. Paul's whole point in Romans is that we cannot restore our relationship to the Father, which has been shattered by sin, by any kind of ritual works even in obedience to God's law given through Moses. We cannot put God in a position of obligation or owing us anything because of something we have done, even if it is obeying his law. Nor can we oblige God by any good works we do above and beyond the requirements of the law on our own initiative. This is a serious dilemma. How then can we be saved? Only by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ who by his faith and obedience even to death on a cross, restored the relationship with the Father, which was broken by the faithless disobedience of Adam (Romans 5: 12-21). But does this bring us back to "faith alone"? Indeed not! For St. Paul himself tells us that God's saving grace is a transforming grace. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2: 8-10) So we are saved by grace through faith to what purpose? Good works in Christ Jesus! So we see that St. James can correctly say without contradicting St. Paul, "faith without works is dead." The works that St. James is speaking of are the good works we do in Christ. It is because they are done in Christ that they have merit. Outside of Christ they are useless and cannot save us or justify us. But where in St. Paul's letter to the Romans can we find any reference to this kind of works in Christ? St. Paul opens and closes his letter with a reference to "the obedience of faith." (Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26) In chapter two he tells us: "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who are justified." (Rom. 2: 13) Eight times in chapter two, between verse six and verse twenty-seven, he speaks of the necessity to "do the law." Is this the same Paul who in the same letter has told us that we are not justified by "works of the law" but by faith? Or is he speaking of two different laws? Are we slaves subject to a fugitive slave law or are we citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven who find our freedom in willing servitude and obedience to the law of love and grace through and in Jesus our Savior who has redeemed us from slavery to sin and death and set us free? In Galatians 4: 21- 31, St. Paul uses this analogy when retelling the story of Hagar and Sara." © Emmaus Road Disciples |
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3 | Do Jesus and Paul agree on salv by faith | NT general Archive 1 | nivlac5 | 90298 | ||
Emmaus, I agree with you assesment in part. Salvation is by faith alone, In Christ alone by Grace alone and works are a natural outpouring of true saving faith(James). The problem with many denominations ie, Catholic, is that they insist unless you belong to that church and are doing its "works" then you are not demonstrating true works that are a result of true saving faith. One does not need to be part of a particular denomination to be producing works and fruit described in Eph 2:8-10. No works we do are meritorious for salvation, the work of Christ was sufficient to cancel our debt of sin. Jesus cries "tetelisti" or it is finished and the debt has been paid in full. The point of James is that saving faith produces true works that "justify" us before other believers, but not before God. | ||||||
4 | Do Jesus and Paul agree on salv by faith | NT general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 90340 | ||
Nivlac5, "The problem with many denominations ie, Catholic, is that they insist unless you belong to that church and are doing its "works" then you are not demonstrating true works that are a result of true saving faith." Please provide documentation from Catholic Church documents that what you have asserted from is actual Catholic teaching? And to what specifically Catholic "works" are you referring? And are you using salvation as a synonym of justification? I think you are reading something into James that is not there. Paul and James are both speaking about faith as examplified by Abraham. The question is how one defines "saving faith". Is is mere intellectual assent or a "decision for Christ" or is it a "faith working in love" (Gal 5:6)? Things that have life move in some manner. That is why things that appear to be dead are often poked to see if they move. If they mover we know there is life. Otherwise we they are seen as dead. Living saving faith moves in loving works. That is what James is saying. Abraham's faith was certainly not static nor a mere intellectual asent nor a mere "decision" for God. Below is official Catholic teacjing on the subject. "CHAPTER VIII HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]" 30. Tit. 3:7. 31. See 1 Cor. 6:11. 32. Eph. 1:13f. 33. Rom. 5:10. 34. Eph. 2:4. 35. C.76, D.IV de cons. 36. Eph. 4:23. 37. See I Cor. 12:11. 38. Rom 5:5. 39. Cf. infra, chap. 10. 40. James 2:17, 20. 41. Gal 5:6, 6:15. 42. Matt. 19:17. 43. Luke 15:22; c.31, D.II de poenit. 44. Rom. 3:24; 5:1. 45. Heb. 11:6. 46. Rom. 11:6. The Council of Trent on Justification Emmaus |
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5 | Do Jesus and Paul agree on salv by faith | NT general Archive 1 | nivlac5 | 90392 | ||
Emmaus, thanks for you response. We seem to differ on what it means to be justified before God. Please consider John John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. John 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. In vs 24 it is clear, those who know the Son(received/believed in Who He is, and what He did on the Cross for all their personal sins) Will have eternal life, will not face the judgement of condemnation, have passed from death to life) In short justification is being declared NOT GUILTY before the Holy and Righteous God, Who alone saves. Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." You mention that faith is the begining of salvation. In one sense this is true but from the legal sense, we are declared not quilty at the moment of faith. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now, works will follow. Why? They are the outpouring of true saving faith, but do not save or merit your salvation. So we are justified once and for all by the finished work of Christ on the Cross and then we are also sanctified(set apart for His service) and then glorified by Him. See Romans 8, Galatians. You asked for examples of Catholic "works" that are required. There are plenty, alms, penance, come to mind. I do have a great audio/video that documents all this and as soon as I get it back from a friend, I can give you more exact and plenary examples. Again, thanks for you response. I would add that the glorious good news of the Gospel that declares us not quilty and forever forgiven is what gives us the joy to serve Him out of gratitude for what He has done for us. In Christ, brad. |
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6 | Do Jesus and Paul agree on salv by faith | NT general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 90393 | ||
Nivlac5, "You asked for examples of Catholic "works" that are required. There are plenty, alms, penance, come to mind. I do have a great audio/video that documents all this and as soon as I get it back from a friend, I can give you more exact and plenary examples...I would add that the glorious good news of the Gospel that declares us not quilty and forever forgiven is what gives us the joy to serve Him out of gratitude for what He has done for us." You seem to be under the misapprehension that Catholics do these things to be justified. They do not. Did you even read the Catholic doctrine on justification that I posted? Ands the last time I looked good Protestants give alms and also do penance for wrongs they have done, because it is the Biblical thing to do. May I suggest that if you want an unbiased understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches you go to Catholic documents. At least then, whether you agree with the real teaching or not, you won't get distorted second hand opinions and inaccurate represntations of Catholic doctrine. Emmaus |
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7 | Do Jesus and Paul agree on salv by faith | NT general Archive 1 | nivlac5 | 90397 | ||
So we agree on the issue of justification as I spelled it out in the last post. The sources of Catholic doctrine that I mention do document from original catholic sources. As I said, once I receive the info. I would be glad to pass it on. What a joy it is to know that we are forgiven and not guilty before Him. | ||||||