Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Churchianity to be answered: | NT general Archive 1 | prayon | 7891 | ||
Churchianity: I have been reading with much interest on the subject of "Churchianity." I would like to make a few comments concerning the various posts that I have read. For one thing there are no perfect churches because there are no perfect people. It doesn't matter how much we think we have it together spiritually, as soon as we walked into the front door, the church would no longer be perfect, because the Lord is still working on all of us. It cannot even be debated that the Lord did not establish organized religion or denominations, but the question to be asked concerning any church is this: How much of the Lord's presence is in the church? To what degree is Jesus Christ being given first place? Is Jesus really being glorified in this place? Who is really in control, is it the pastor, the deacons, the people, or is it the Spirit of God ? There are denominational churches where God is present, because a place is being given for the Holy Spirit to rule and reign. There are also non-denominational churches and home churches that are totally under the control of some man or group of people, and the Spirit of God is being quenched. Which church do you believe that the Lord is most pleased with? It is not only a question of being in the system or out of the sytem, but the question is this: Are we in the will of God? Are we related to the Body in some way? Are we allowing Jesus Christ to be Lord of our lives? Are we living for Him or just living for ourselves? Several years ago I got the shock of my life when Sharon and I met a couple that I had been corresponding with by E-mail in a home meeting in Alabama. I considered these people to be very spiritual people by the prophetic messages that they were giving out. They had come out of orgnized religion themselves. What I found out made me sick to my stomach because they dominated and took control of the meeting. Another brother even tried to bring a word of correction in love, but they wouldn't hear what he was saying. They wanted to be in control. This really taught me something, that there are some in the Body of Christ that are deceived, because they think they are something special and are not submitted to the Lord or to the rest of the Body but are out there doing their own thing. God has not called anyone to be seperated from the rest of the Body of Christ. We are all members one of another, and the Lord is against this individualism that fragments and breaks the Body apart. The one thing that the enemy is working overtime on is to cause division and strife and break the unity of the Spirit in the church. "For as the Body is one and has many members, and all the members of that one body, being many , are one body, so also is Christ." "For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body, whether we be (parapharsed) in the "organized church", or outside of it), and have all been made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many." (1 Cor. 12: 12-14). "For while one says (parphrased) I am a baptist, another says "I am non denominational". Another says " I don't belong to any church, I only follow Jesus." Are you not carnal? (1 Cor. 3: 4). As you can see I changed the wording slightly, but you get the point. "For we are laborers together with God; ye are God's husbandry, you are God's building." (1 Cor. 3: 9). We cannot say that just because that someone is in the organized church or outside of it that they are not following the Lord. I believe that God leaves some saints in organized churches at least for a season, many times to pray and intercede. If you are on fire for Jesus in a dead church, then one or two things will happen. Either there will be a resurrection that takes place in the lives of those that are dead, or you will get the left foot of fellowship. In any case, whether it be revival or judgement, the Lord's will is being done.to be answered: |
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2 | Churchianity to be answered: | NT general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 8102 | ||
Prayon: Actually, I would debate that Jesus did come to establish some form of organized religion. I am not arguing for an all-encompassing body such as the Roman Catholic Church or any particular denomination; however, Jesus did come to establish a CHURCH, not a disorganized group of individuals who just happen to be saved by God's grace on the basis of faith in Christ alone. Hebrews 10:25 tells us not to forsake the assembly. It is a command in Scripture, not a mere "helpful hint." Yes, there are bad (dare I say APOSTATE?) churches out there, and obviously those are not congregations with whom we should be affiliating for spritual fellowship and growth. However, the "Lone Ranger" model of Christianity is found nowhere in the New Testament. In addition, your paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 12:13 is faulty. The very thrust of Paul's argument is that nationality and social status are not distinctions recognized within the body of believers, not that one can either fellowship or not and be following God. As you have quoted, we are members of one another, and just as the hand doesn't accomplish a whole lot without the feet, so the Christian who chooses to isolate himself from his brethren is not functioning properly. Now that having been said, Christ is the "head of the church" and the "chief cornerstone" and the vine of which we are the branches. One of the main problems that we do see among leaders (and congregations that follow them) is forgetting of their place and thinking that they are the head or the hinge upon which the church turns. When this is the case, we have the age-old "cult of personality" problem. --Joe! |
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3 | Churchianity to be answered: | NT general Archive 1 | charis | 8241 | ||
Dear Joe! I take from the above post that you believe the denominational system is the safeguard mechanism to protect us from 'rouge pastors.' That organization is the balancing factor to keep us from the vagaries of unorthodoxy. I take issue that 'assembly' means extra-church organization. "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst." Matthew 18:20 NASB. 'gathered together' is the same as 'assemble.' It is enough to be considered holy fellowship. 'The more the merrier' is true in a human sense. The more gathered, the potential for straying from the Spirit is multiplied. (Even though a moderation factor exists, so also a dilution factor is evident.) For instance, could this Scripture be extrapolated to say, "For where two or three thousand have gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst." I would say NOT! After a certain point (depending on the shepherd), A human organization dilutes the moving of the Spirit. Though some may grouse, I quote from a hymn, "My hope is built on nothing less Than Jesus' blood and righteousness; I dare not trust the sweetest frame, But wholly lean on Jesus' name. On Christ the solid Rock, I stand; All other ground is sinking sand." Joe, some human orgaization may lend stability, but man tends to depend on it like a drug. You may be immune to this dependency, but most are not. Rather than 'living stones' in the structure of the church, they become dead bricks, mortared together by man's authority rather than the bonding of the Spirit of God. Blessings in Jesus' name, charis |
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4 | Churchianity to be answered: | NT general Archive 1 | Reformer Joe | 8243 | ||
Actually, I attend a non-denominational church, but I myself am not anti-denominational. I think most true followers of Christ in denominations would not say, "Upon the (insert denom here) I stand." My point was that the church was established by Christ, and that the visible church does operate best when it is organized. And it indeed does keep out heresy when operating correctly. Imagine where we would be if in the first five centuries of Christianity we did not have councils which recognized Gentile believers, fixed the canon of Scripture, codified the Trinity, recognized original sin as a doctrine of the Bible and recognized the need for God's grace, etc. etc. All were done by organized groups of believers to resist Gnosticism, Pelagianism, Arianism, etc. Also, the Reformers acted as an organized group as well, giving us back our Bible and reacquinting the world with justification theough faith alone in Christ alone. God indeed works theough organized groups of believers to keep the faith pure. "Every man for himself" leads to chaos. Just check the last verse of Judges. --Joe! |
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5 | Churchianity to be answered: | NT general Archive 1 | charis | 8244 | ||
Dear Joe, 'Alternate History' is not my thing, but I still believe that the church would be better off without the 'super-organized' religion we now have. In many ways, Jesus has been 'organized out' of Christianity. Some organization (order) is called for in the Bible, I grant. But any 'name before Christ' is not His will. That is the definition of denomination. A 'descriptor' that modifies the Proper Noun of Jesus Christ. Joe, (and Forum), I am not anti-organization, but I am against a non-Biblical organization beyond the local church. I cannot get from "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." Judges 21:25 NASB, that we need a present-day 'king' (pontiff, bishop) of a supra-church organization to keep us in line. The Spirit of God is well able to do the same thing. (If we allow Him) In Jesus' name, charis |
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