Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 72054 | ||
David You are putting words and meanings to the Bible that just aren't there. First in John 19:31-33 it does not say the thieves would be taken down and put back up. It says they legs were broken so they wouldn't be on the cross for the Sabbath. Death by crucifixion comes from asphyxiation. The victim is forced to push against the nails driven in his foot to get a breath of air. Slowly he is worn down and unable to lift his body and he dies. To speed the process for whatever reason the legs of the victim was broken (hit in the knee with a heavy mallet) so they could no longer lift themselves to breath and death was short coming. Second Jesus did not say he did not go heaven. He said do not cling to me have for I have not yet ascended to the Father. In the Greek the meaning of the statement is and I paraphrase, do not slow me down I have much to do before I ascend to the Father. Which we know He did forty days later. Hebrews 9:12-14, 24 that Jesus entered the tabernacle in heaven and offered his blood as the perfect sacrifice. Jesus had to be in heaven to do that. Thirdly Jesus said to the thief to day you will be with me in paradise. We know Jesus went to Hades (translated hell) to lead the captivity captive Ephesians 4:8. We alos know from Luke 16 that Hades or the holding place for the dead was divided into two sections one a hot dry place where the unrighteous go upon death and the Abraham’s Bosom or paradise where the righteous went before Jesus’ death. Since Jesus’ death Paul tells us in 5:8 to be absent from the body (dead) is to be present with the Lord (Jesus) who is in heaven. EdB |
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2 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | David_24597 | 72081 | ||
Hi EdB, You might be interested to know that this "death by asphyxiation" would only occur should the victim be crucified with his arms suspended ABOVE his head, not (as in Jesus' case) with the arms stretched out on either side. It could take up to three days for a person to die with the arms outstretched on either side. Death in this manner is the result of the victim going into hypovolemic shock. Death is this manner can be in, a manner of hours, or days depending on the manner in which the victim is affixed to the cross. If the victim is crucified with a small seat, a sedile, affixed to the uptight for minimum support in the region of the buttocks, death can be prolonged for hours and days. If you will recall, Pilate was surprised that Jesus was already dead after just six hours. He had to send someone to go check to make sure. (Mark 15:43-45) Second John 20:17 in the Greek is "haptomai mou me" (touch/cling to, me/mine, not/that not) so it HAS been (the KJV) translated accurately enough. And the word "paradise" in Luke 23:43 is "paradeisos" Strong's #3857 and DOES denote the place where God dwells. (Rev. 2:7) It is another word for heaven. Third "Hades" denotes "the grave", the place where the dead go. It does NOT mean some underground place where living souls are. And the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was just that (a parable). It was not a literal account of things. Consider that a man's arm could not literally stretch across this great gulf. Much less would a couple of drops of water ease the suffering of anyone in a place of perpetual burning. Jesus said this story to show that those that live a life of pleasure (at the expense of others) in this life would end up suffering the final penaly for sin. While those that lived a life of suffering (for Jesus' sake) would enherit eternal life. And finally II Cor. 5:8 I take to mean "absent from the fleshly desires of the body". Note verse 7 "we walk by faith not by sight" (these things are spiritualy discerned) and verse 10 shows that he is talking about "things done in the body". He is not talking about being physiacally dead. Another verse in Col. 2:5 shows that "absent in the flesh yet am present in the spirit" simply means that his physical presence is not there with them at that time yet his (Paul's) spirit is. Much in the way that you might think about someone (wishing you were with them) yet you are physically apart from them. |
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3 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 72122 | ||
David I do not know where you got the information on crucifixion but anytime the body is suspended from the arms either vertical or from them being pulled out horizontal the diaphragm is unable to overcome the shoulder muscle tension to allow it to draw air into the lungs. The Romans perfected crucifixion, and invented many ways to prolong the agony. History records they were able to have their victims survive unbelievably long on the cross, much to the Roman’s enjoyment. Romans took great enjoyment watching the internal conflict that took place within the victim. The victim was faced with inflicting more pain upon ones body by pressing against impaled feet versus the desire of self preservation relief from asphyxiation. This was brought to a climax as the victim tired and his struggles became even more desperate and wrenching. Nonetheless the breaking of the legs (actually a smashing of the knee joint by a blow from a large mallet), thereby preventing the victim from taking the pressure off his upper body so the diaphragm could draw in more air, brought an immediate end to the victim. This was used anytime the process needed to be speeded up for what ever reason. In this case to appease the Jews by not having victims on the cross during Sabbath. The reason for Jesus’ dying within the time span recorded in scripture was obviously his severely degraded physical condition brought on by his flogging and subsequent mistreatment. There is nothing recorded in scripture or secular history that remotely suggests the condemned thieves were removed from the cross and reattached days later. Strong’s while very accurate does not provide understanding of Greek word but rather how the words were translated by the KJV scholars. Greek language students that have studied this passage agree Jesus is not talking here about his forthcoming ascension in 40 days nor the idea he hadn’t yet appeared before God since His death. The passage clearly shows he is admonishing Mary not to delay Him as he had much to do in the next 40 days. It was also spoken to comfort Mary by telling her Jesus would remain yet for a period of time. To debate over the meaning of the word “paradise” here is futile since immediately upon Jesus’ death it changed from Abraham’s bosom to Heaven. In any case Jesus lead captivity captive to say it another way took everyone out of Abraham’s bosom (paradise) and lead them into the presence of the God. Your assertion that because Luke 16 is a parable, therefore it is not true, is based on what? That Jesus told tall tales? Parables are not spun tales based on untrue concepts but rather statements based on familiar concepts projecting truth. The parable of Luke 16 lined up totally with the Jewish concept of death, and Hades as had been established throughout the Jewish culture/religion long before Jesus’ time. If the Jews had the wrong perception of death and Hades would not Jesus use the opportunity presented in Luke 16 to bring correction to their understanding? Your suggestion that Jesus would tell parable that would reinforce a incorrect belief is highly unlikely and violates everything we know about Jesus. Your argument of Hades is confused with the Lake of Fire. In Luke 16 the side of the unrighteous is described as a hot dry place, so yes a few drops of water would be a welcomed relief. Remember the souls residing there have not yet stood before the Judgement seat they are not experiencing punishment as much as they aren’t being made comfortable while they wait their fate. This compares to our treatment of criminals today. When a criminal is arrested he is placed in a holding cell and kept out of general population, why because he has not yet been judged guilty. However once convicted he is move to a much worst place where he will serve his time. To us both places seem undesirable but I assure you if you ask any prisoner, he would rather be where he was when first arrested before conviction. Your interpretation of 2 Cor 5:8 by comparing it to Col 2:5 violates established laws of language and rips the verses out of context. The concept presented in 2 Cor. 5:8 is further reinforced by Philip. 1:23 “For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.” Consulting every major commentator on this subject confirms that this passage is rightly talking about departing from this body in death and coming into the presence of the Lord, which we know is in God presence thus in heaven. EdB |
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4 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | David_24597 | 72175 | ||
EdB, I got that information about crucifixion from a website. I don't remember which one though. They did a study where some students agreed to be tied to crosses in the same position that Jesus was crucufied. No problems with breathing. They began to have problems with their internal organs though. Do a google search if you're really interested in knowing more about this. Anybody who reads John 20:17 can see that you are attempting to rewrite scripture here. Read it for yourself. Then read Luke 24:38-39 and see that they COULD touch Him then. If Mary couldn't touch Him right after His resurrection because He had not yet presented Himself to the Father yet later on that same day His disciples COULD touch Him, then He must have gone to heaven in between the two times that Mary saw Him and His disciples saw Him. Then 40 days later He went to heaven in front of everybody. Then there was the time he saw Paul on the road to Damascus. There were obvoiusly times when He was coming and going between earth and heaven. This teaching in John 20:17 does in no way deny His ascension 40 days later. I did not say that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was not true. I said it was a parable and not to be taken literally. Let's consider your version of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus: 1) I assume that you believe that they were "disembodied" spirits or souls? What effect would a hot dry place have on such a being? For that matter what would a couple drops of water do to this creature? In order for these physical things to have any effect of the rich man, he would have to be "in the flesh". He could not be a "disembodied" spirit/soul. 2) Consider the other texts I supplied in the above 2 part post. Specifically Ps. 146:3 and Eccl. 9:5-6. The thoughts and emotions of the dead are "perished". How could the dead have a conversation between themselves if they are unable to think or feel? 3) If the saved in "Abraham's bosom" all accompanied Jesus at His ascension then why is King David still in his grave and has not ascended into heaven? Acts 2:29 and 34 Anyway, why don't you read my post up there and check out the references I supplied on what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead. You will see that they don't match up with your version of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. And, also, I havent't taken II Cor. 5:8 out of context. Read verses 6, 9, 10, 15 and 16. He is talking about the lusts of the flesh here. Can't you see that? Also compare verse 17 here with 7:1. There are plenty of Bible verse that teach that to follow our fleshly desires will seperate us from God. Do yourself a favor Ed. Do a little research into every verse you can find in the Bible concerning the state of the dead. There is quite a thread to be found there if you're interested. Don't let your indoctrinated beliefs influence your thinking. Let the Bible teach you what it is really saying. I can tell that you haven't really done that. I urge you to try it for once. It may take you a few days to look into, but I think you will benefit from it. If you have a good concordance, check out the words sleep/sleepeth, awake/awaken/awakened, dead/death, grave, resurrection, etc. I think you will be surprised what you will find. |
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5 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 72178 | ||
David Have you been hanging around Jehovah Witnesses you sure sound like a advocate for soul sleep. I'll tell you what I tried to explain to you what occurred on the cross as documented by the bible, secular history, the medical community, and researchers but if you want to believe a bunch of guys on the internet tying each on a cross in an effort to duplicate actual crucifixion okay! They sound like trustworthy experts. I also thank you for your advice to study the Bible, that is what I intend to do as it seems more profitable than to try to reason with you. EdB |
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6 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | David_24597 | 72182 | ||
I'm sorry. I thought you would be interested in an intellectual study of what the Bible might say about the state of the dead. If you want to insult me and be sarcastic and ignore the texts I supplied for you then that's up to you. I wish you well anyway. God bless and I hope you will come to the truth soon. You won't listen to me about it so I guess this discussion is at an end. Sorry. And no, I'm not a Jehovah's Witness. I believe that Jesus is my Creator (not a created being). |
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7 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | EdB | 72186 | ||
David I think you threw the first insult by telling how I needed to study. To me that was an attempt to insinuate that you were better studied than me. If I took it wrong I apologize. Also I would love to have an intellectual decision on this subject, however your exegesis of John 20:17 is incorrect as supportted by Eph 4:8 Hebrews 9:12-14 and the Greek language itself. I tried to point that out and you refused to accept it. I also tried to show you that what Jesus said in the parable of Luke 16 followed the accepted teaching of the death and the dwelling place of the dead in Jewish culture. Therefore if Luke 16 is incorrect then Jesus either was not aware this was the common teaching or he sought to reinforce a false teaching. To disprove this you used proof texts in an attempt to prove your point ripping them out of context and violating their real meaning. The statement, “If the saved in "Abraham's bosom" all accompanied Jesus at His ascension then why is King David still in his grave and has not ascended into heaven? Acts 2:29 and 34” . Tells me you either do not know or do not understand the relationship of the body and soul upon death as defined by orthodox Christianity. Your argument violates the last 2000 years of teaching within Christianity and to me is not worth discussing. I attempted to discuss crucifixion with you but you cite me some students on the web tried this. What about recorded history. Rome and crucifixion wasn’t so long ago that we don’t have any record secular information on the subject. Many Roman historians have written on the subject. For me to throw out all the legitimate research that has been done on this subject in favor of some students on the internet would to me show I do not consider the subject of value. I think it best we let this subject drop. As I said I thank you for your advice to continue to study the Bible. EdB |
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8 | Do we go directly to Heaven? | Bible general Archive 1 | David_24597 | 72187 | ||
EdB, read what the OT prophets have said concerning the state of the dead. Then tell me what the parable of the rich man and Lazarus means. Until then I agree that there is no reason for us to continue this discussion. | ||||||