Results 1 - 13 of 13
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | HISROSEBUD15 | 123241 | ||
In some of his letters, Paul distinguished his words/wishes/opinions from those of the Lord our God. This particular verse has been sited and referenced to support the belief that it is not God's will that women be Pastors (or even ministers in some congregations). Was this verse Paul's opinion, or God's Word? | ||||||
2 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Rowdy | 123255 | ||
Like you say, when Paul is giving guidance that is only coming from him WITHOUT the Holy Spirit's sponsoring, he says so very clearly but in the Epistle to Timothy, he's very plain and straight forward. There's no room for interpretation. 1 Tim 2:9 Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint. I realize this is one of the reasons why so many folks, especially our ladies think Paul was chavenistic in his thinking but we must remember, it wasn't Paul but it's God that's giving these commands. God is doing here the same He's done throughout the whole Bible. Women have always "taken the back seat" or "played second fiddle" in God's World. He made women the weaker vessel and he made the men of the world to take the lead in all things, especially those in the spiritual world, including His Son's church and the worship assemblies. Hope this helps and God bless. --Rowdy |
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3 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | srbaegon | 123339 | ||
Hello Rowdy, The forum rules state: Postings must be Biblically based and not opposing to the authority of the Bible, Christianity, or the deity of Jesus Christ. Your reply: "Paul is giving guidance that is only coming from him WITHOUT the Holy Spirit's sponsoring" is diametrically opposed to the authority of the Bible. If you continue, I'll be forced to report you for forum abuse. Steve |
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4 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Rowdy | 123342 | ||
Stever, dear friend, It appears you are misrepresenting the facts but I'm going to assume you just made an honest mistake and will go on from there. Thus I cite my statement as it appeared as follows "Like you say, WHEN Paul is giving guidance that is only coming from him WITHOUT the Holy Spirit's sponsoring, he says so very clearly but in the Epistle to Timothy, he's very plain and straight forward. There's no room for interpretation." As an example of what I was talking about with this statement, I cite the following scripture 1 Cor 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command. 7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. 9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. Here we see Paul dealing with a very, very tough subject and several times, he goes back and forth giving guidance as speaking for the Lord and in other instances, just giving his opinion or stating his prefernce under the circumstances (which I believe he was referring to the amount of persecution christians were undergoing). Now that's done, let's go back to what you've done. For future reference so YOU don't ruin someone else's reputation or your own and get yourself "thrown off" the Forum, I would urge you to be more thorough in reviewing controversial posts such as mine, most ESPECIALLY if you're making a serious accusation as stated in your post. As you've already discovered, I don't hesitate to deal with some thorny issues and speak maybe just a little impulsively myself. But as I've stated many times before, my posts to this Forum will ALWAYS be Bible based or I'll try to make it clear I'm just stating my opinion. But even then my opinions will be based on inferences from God's Word and will be at least the best of my ability, based on solid logic therefrom. I do hope this is the end of this controversy. I look forward to a very long and fruitful ministry here on this Forum, including future discussions with you. God bless. --Rowdy |
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5 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | srbaegon | 123344 | ||
Hello Rowdy, I am not misrepresenting anything. You said that Paul gave guidance without the Holy Spirit's sponsorship. I understood you clearly and knew what passage you had in mind when making the statement. It is blatantly false. Paul stipulated that all Scripture is God-breathed: 2 Tim. 3:16-17 (ESV) All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righ teousness, [17] that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. And Peter identifies Paul's writings as Scripture: 2 Peter 3:15-16 (ESV) And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, [16] as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. Ergo, based on solid logic, Paul's words are Scripture (i.e. Holy Spirit sponsored). Steve |
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6 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Rowdy | 123347 | ||
I'll agree with the overall sentiment of your statement but surely you're not trying to say that all of us should avoid marriage as per Paul's instructions. Again I say Paul's instructions were directed to a special audience to deal with a particular crisis. Now, when and if we have a similar crisis those words might be more applicable. But as it stands now Paul was clarifying his opinions from the Lord's commands. This kind of guidance allowed those folks options just as we have in today's world. Paul loved them so much, he just didn't want to see them get hurt. I'll have to stand by my statement and let the Forum Watchers make their judgment as they need to. When it comes down to following the words or men or God, I'm afraid I will always side with Joshua, his family, Peter, John and all the others in the Bible. I'll still pray for God to help enlighten you on this tough subject. God bless. --Rowdy PS: I'm sorry but I just gotta ask. IF you knew this much about this controversy, why did you copy only a portion of my statement which made it appear to be a misrepresentation to the casual observer? |
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7 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | srbaegon | 123349 | ||
Hello Rowdy, No, I'm not saying that we should avoid marriage. Paul is giving an opinion, yet even this opinion is itself scripture as I've already established. You cannot say that it was not sponsored by the Holy Spirit. To do so demeans God's word. The authority of scripture is not a tough subject. It only needs to be believed. Reply to PS: I did not misrepresent you. I responded only to your opening paragraph which called the authority of scripture into question. Steve |
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8 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Rowdy | 123365 | ||
I'll address this note to you and hope that Searcher sees it as he is joining with you in the same position. There's always going to be disagreements between Bible students; that's one thing is as definite as the Judgment Day. So we'll just have to agree to disagree. It seems clear with the amount of ambiguity as displayed in our posts and the scriptures supporting them, there's room for this disagreement. I'm just thankful it's not critical to a person's salvation. Thanks for the objective review and comments. God bless. --Rowdy |
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9 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | BradK | 123369 | ||
Rowdy, I must joint both Steve and Searcher on this one! This is more than just a "disagreement". This goes to the very core of the authority of God's word. Brother, I certainly don't believe you to be intentional in your error, however I feel you remiss and even careless to say such a thing.(Prov.9:9). You've had 2, and now 3 brothers approach you in the spirit of Matt. 18:16 to show you the error of your ways. I would counsel you to strongly consider the advice and be a little more careful in your posts:-) And I am, Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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10 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Rowdy | 123402 | ||
Cited once again for reference: 1 Cor 7:5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command. 7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. 9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. So, let me understand you correctly. You are advocating that all single christians in today's world must remain as they are and NOT marry. How can you possibly defend this position? One more scripture I might submit as a help in this situation: 1 Pet 3:14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame. In verse 15, the Greek word for defense includes the concept of using our intellect in a logical manner so as to make the defense a solid one, based on a thorough understanding of God's Word. I would submit to you that this is a perfect command to us as christians to use our intellect and approach God's Word with a proper amount of emphasis on the context which includes the writer's identification, the recipient, the background or issue being discussed. Thus we see in the passage from Paul to the Corinthians, both instructions from God AND separate instructions from Paul. These two sets of instructions had very different purposes. God's priority with regard to marriage has always been to keep the marriage together as a couple, both partners faithful to each other. It is clear from these verses from Paul, that he thought it would be better "in view of the present distress" (v26) that his fellow christians avoid marriage. But Paul's instructions here were NOT from God or the Holy Spirit as he so clearly indicated. With that said, I do wish to end this controversy and would like to make this my last post to this thread. I think I've already proven my love and devotion to God and His Word. God bless. --Rowdy |
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11 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | EdB | 123404 | ||
Now see Rowdy this is how you get yourself in trouble. You say things that are almost correct but not totally. Paul never said do not marry he said it would be to their benefit not to marry, but if they are open to temptation lacking self control they should marry. Why did he say do not marry? Anyone in the ministry will tell you ministry is as very hard strain on marriage. The spouse will feel pressure that is beyond their control just because people try to use the inside track a spouse has with the pastor. Furthermore many called into ministry faced a problem where the calling was taking them places the family could/would not go. Lastly when persecution arises many times the spouse is attacked as way to get at the pastor. So yea it probably would be better for a one called to ministry not marry but how many have the self control? Not many my friend from the headlines with are reading. Lately you have been using a new tactic saying this is the last thing I'm going to say on this. Well that is a little like saying I want the last word and I really don't care what else you say. EdB |
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12 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Rowdy | 123419 | ||
I really do appreciate your maturity, your kindness and open mindedness. My wife has been telling me lately I'm spending too much time on this Forum to suit her anyway. So I think I'll follow Colin's lead and take a few weeks vacation and see what develops. If the Lord decides that I need to stay off the Forum permanently I can accept that. It's been a real pleasure reading your posts and exchanging ideas and opinions about God's Holy Word. Thanks for your support. God's richest blessings on everything you do and say. Keep the faith, dear friend. --Rowdy |
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13 | I Tim 2:12 Paul's opinion or God's Word? | 1 Tim 2:12 | Popcorn | 140709 | ||
Dear Rowdy, I am helping my son research a project for (Christian) high school on women's role in the church. I have printed out many of the things posted on the forum, in addition to many translations, commentaries, etc.. Many useful perspectives/viewpoints put forth in this forum. His teacher will grade him on how he went about his research and how that research helped create his interpretation, but will withhold his (teacher's) own interpretation of scripture until students have completed their projects. Freedom to think in the body of Christ--yeah! So, that's how I found this site. Now to my comment. I really appreciate your gracious responses to this subject and to those that have strongly disagreed with the way in which you have put things. Thank you for being a good (and much-needed at this moment in my life) example of Christ. No need to respond; likely I won't be back. (I never spend much time on the net and have gathered what I need for my son.) But thank you. And God bless you. rr |
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