Results 1 - 11 of 11
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | SUNSTAR | 75631 | ||
Where are verses to support BOTH sides of the "ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED" debate? | ||||||
2 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | Reformer Joe | 75632 | ||
The verse above is a good one. Here are some others that suggest a one-way transition from one spiritual condition to another: Romans 8 (especially verses 1-2 and 29 ff.) 1 Peter 2:9-10 Ephesians 1:3-6,13-14 John 6:44 Galatians 2:20 etc. Verses used to argue salvation can be lost are verses having to do with "persevering to the end." 1 Timothy 4:16 James 1:12 etc. Other passages which clearly show the possibility of someone walking away from the household of faith, such as Hebrews 3:12, 4:14, 6:4-6, and Hebrews 10. Passages like Romans 11:22 and John 15 demonstrate some sort of "cutting off." The question is whether those who are "cut off" from God's covenant blesssings were ever truly saved in the first place. We see several instances in Scripture where people seemed to be saved but turned out to be corrupt (Judas Iscariot and Ananias and Sapphira are two examples). We also see Jesus telling professing disciples that he NEVER knew them (Matthew 7:21-23). We also see in other places where it is directly stated that some among God's people were not truly God's people. Certainly the Israelites showed that in their long covenant history, but the New Testament authors indicate this in several places as well: "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." --John 2:19 "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." --Jude 4 So the real debate should be not whether people fall away or not (since warnings from God are meaningless if there is no possibility of the thing occurring), but whether those who fall away were once genuine believers or those who only enjoyed the blessings of living and partaking among the Lord's true disciples. Hope this helps to give you a brief overview! --Joe! |
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3 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75650 | ||
Joe said "The question is whether those who are "cut off" from God's covenant blesssings were ever truly saved in the first place." Here is a quote from a source unknown to me I will add as a rebuttal and for your input as well. "Paul wrote about some who "made ship-wreck of their faith" (1 Tim. 1:19,20) unlike many in our day Paul did not say of these who shipwrecked their faith, they were never really saved to begin with." Blessings New creature |
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4 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | Reformer Joe | 75740 | ||
New Creature: The passage from 1 Timothy is a good one to look at. The issue at hand is what Paul means by making a shipwreck of one's faith. Does it mean losing one's salvation? Here is the passage from 1 Timothy: "This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme." --1 Timothy 1:18-20 A couple of observations on my part: 1. This shipwreck of faith is not some hypothetical, imaginary situation, as Paul gives two specific examples of individuals who have indeed shipwrecked. 2. Paul "handed them over to Satan" (which I take to mean to disfellowship from the communion of saints) for a purpose, so that they will repent of their blasphemy. Therefore, if Paul is talking about losing one's salvation in the case of Hymenaeus and Alexander, he is holding out the possibility of them being "re-saved" again. But what does the passage in Hebrews say? "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." --Hebrews 6:4-6 How do you reconcile Paul talking about teaching Hymenaeus and Alexander not to blaspheme (i.e. to repent) and Hebrews telling us that it is impossible for those who have fallen away to be brought back to repentance, if indeed the "shipwreck of faith" equals loss of salvation? Your brother in Christ... --Joe! |
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5 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75768 | ||
Joe concerning the imagery of a shipwreck. If a ship gets blown up into the shallows and rocky reefs, the waves will batter that ship upon the rocks until it is completely broken up and destoyed to an unrepairable state. That is the picture I believe Paul is trying to convey to the readers in 1 Tim 1:18-20. Joe you stated: "How do you reconcile Paul talking about teaching Hymenaeus and Alexander not to blaspheme (i.e. to repent)" I don't see where you equate "blaspheme" with "repent" I don't see where these two individuals in the text were told to repent. I personally don't see how anyone who has made shipwreck of his faith could repent again since Heb. 6:4-6 says it is immpossible for those who have fallen away (apostazied) to be renewed a second time to repentance. When they made shipwreck, their faith was sunk. And it became impossible to renew them again. Their fall was final and complete. Thats the way I see it But I thank you for your thoughts on this even if we do not see eye to eye concerning this. God Bless New Creature |
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6 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | Reformer Joe | 75774 | ||
'I don't see where you equate "blaspheme" with "repent" I don't see where these two individuals in the text were told to repent.' I wasn't equating blasphemy with repentance. Sorry if I was unclear in my wording. Let me try again: Paul said he delivered the two over to Satan "so that they will be taught not to blaspheme." In other words, at this point Paul did not consider them to be written off. There was a very specific purpose in mind for these two victims of shipwreck: to bring them to repentance for their sin of blasphemy, whatever the particulars may have been. Therefore, Paul had not written them off as beyond repentance, despite the fact that they had made a "shipwreck of their faith." So, if they had fallen away from a state of salvation (and it would be impossible for them to be brought to repentance according to Hebrews 6:4-6), why is Paul trying to teach them ANYTHING? --Joe! |
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7 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75805 | ||
Joe Many people are taught many things through mistakes they have made. That does not mean you can undo the mistake that has been committed. It also may be possible that they were being taught a lesson, just like Ananias and his wife Sapphira were being taught so that others may fear and not make the same mistake. So as I see it Paul was not trying to say it was possible for Hymenaeus and Alexander to be renewed to repentance a second time, (Heb. 6:4-6) any more that it would be likely for the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira to be undone. Either way those are my assumptions vs. your assumptions about the text in question since the text does not specifically say what either of us has implied thus far. Based on that the imagery of a shipwreck and what it depicts about being completely and finally lost and ruined in the depths is a more likely senario that seems at least to me to agree with 1 Tim. 1:18-20 I do however appreciate and respect your opinions on this topic. Check out the following rendering of the text in this debate. It might give us another clue to the meaning or at least some fuel for more discussion. 1 Timothy 1 18 My son Timothy, here is what I tell you to do. And it is what the prophets said about you before. Remember their words, and fight like a good soldier. 19 Keep on believing. Do only what you know is right. Some people have not done that and they have stopped believing. 20 Hymenaeus and Alexander are among them. I have given them to Satan so that they will be punished and learn not to teach things that do not respect God. (Worldwide English New Testament) God Bless New Creature |
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8 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | Reformer Joe | 75829 | ||
I don't see the account of Ananias and Sapphira as a lesson to them, but rather the judgment of God and a lesson for others. One could hardly say that as a result the two corpses learned not to lie to the Holy Spirit (even though I am sure they never did it again). If we are talking about the imagery of the shipwreck, we could also look at the imagery that Scripture uses to describe regeneration. We see justification (being declared righteous because of what Christ accomplished); redemption (being purchased with the shed blood of Christ...does God sell back the one who falls away?); new birth (does one become "un-born again"?); becoming a new creation (only to become an old creation again?); being transferred by God from one kingdom to another (only to be transferred back?); etc. To me it seems like the images surrounding the transformation of the Christian seem a whole lot more one-way than a shipwreck. Many scholars also consider this shipwreck to be a wrecking of their profession of faith, since that also would be consistent with the sin of blasphemy. --Joe! |
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9 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75871 | ||
Joe since you asked "new birth (does one become "un-born again"?)" Let me respond and answer with a quote I found concerning that question. "I have listened many times to an explanation of eternal security based upon the analogy of sonship. "My child is born into my family and he will always be my child. He cannot be unborn. Whether obedient or disobedient, he will always be my child." This reasoning avoids the central issue. The question is not whether a child can be "unborn" but whether it can sicken and die. Doctors do not admonish parents about the dangers of their child being "unborn" but rather about proper care of the child to keep it from dying.In fact if the baby is not fed it will soon die. In the same way, Jesus said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53 (from a source unknown to me) Beacause of what many verses of the Bible state, I have no choice but to believe that a person who HAS BEEN MADE ALIVE SPIRITUALLY, can also die spiritually. Spiritual death, is just as real as physical death. God Bless New Creature |
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10 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | Reformer Joe | 75873 | ||
'This reasoning avoids the central issue. The question is not whether a child can be "unborn" but whether it can sicken and die.' But most advocates of the loss of salvation argue that one theoretically can be born again hundreds of of times during one's physical lifetime. I see no substantive biblical support that one can keep losing their salvation and keep getting it back again. The Hebrews passages that are often cited mitigate against this idea: "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" --Hebrews 10:26-29 --Joe! |
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11 | once saved, always saved? | Col 1:13 | New Creature | 75875 | ||
Joe I am not one of those advocates that attempt to argue that one can be born again and again. As you stated concerning the passages in Hebrews indeed do mitigate against that idea. I agree. I personally believe that we are made spiritually alive only once. And that it is possible for such a person to die a spiritual death only once. Nevertheless spiritual death is just as real as physical death. God Bless New Creature |
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