Results 1 - 13 of 13
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Pam D | 100108 | ||
What is the difference between my self effort to be holy now that I am saved and my self effort to be good when I was saved? I have reposted this question as per mommaphs suggestion. You can find what some answers to it are under the questions, Why are the NT epistles in that order? What is my role in my own sanctification? and What is God's role in my sanctification? Thanks for any help you may provide. Blessings, Pam |
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2 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Reformer Joe | 100109 | ||
"What is the difference between my self effort to be holy now that I am saved and my self effort to be good when I was saved?" I assume you meant your self-effort to be good before you were saved, right? :) Your self-effort before you are saved is a pointless exercise, because no one can attain the perfection that God requires. We all have sinned, and legalism (the idea of earning salvation by law-keeping) is thoroughly refuted in Scripture. We need the imputed righteousness of Christ to be able to stand before an infinitely holy God. The key is understanding that you were not saved just so that you will go to heaven, but so that God's glory would be displayed through your sanctification. So, the Spirit of God motivates us and empowers us to fight against our old sin nature, to put sin to death (Colossians 3). Our role in our sanctification is to wage "no-holds-barred" war against our sin and thereby glorify God (1 Peter 2:11-12). To do this, we rely on God's Spirit that is working within us to give us the strength to do so, and we make use of the means of grace God has given us (word, sacraments, prayer) as our tools and weapons in this struggle. None of those things is effectual in the life of the unbeliever seeking to establish his own righteousness (other than to be used as visual aids for a hypocritical legalism), but they are God's gifts to the Christian, ways in which the Spirit works to glorify the Triune God through our cooperation and transformation (Romans 12:2). A great book on this subject is _The Discipline of Grace_ by Jerry Bridges: http://www.discerningreader.com/disofgracjer.html --Joe! |
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3 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Ken hepting | 100151 | ||
Won't work. Can't be sustained because it is from self effort that you attempt to perform the task regardless of how many graces you 'conjure up'. [I assume you meant your self-effort to be good before you were saved, right? :)] No, I believe she means righteousness. Righteousness as in 'blameless'. We all realize no one with imputed sin can stand before God and live and Jesus took care of that on the cross. But righteous/blameless people lived long before God sent Jesus to "redeem" them from Paradise. Isaiah' mention that there is none righteous has to do with a very specific time in Israel's history having to with their rebelliousness [which is as the sin of witchcraft; no righteousness here. No, not one was.] [Your self-effort before you are saved is a pointless exercise, because no one can attain the perfection that God requires. We all have sinned, and legalism (the idea of earning salvation by law-keeping) is thoroughly refuted in Scripture. We need the imputed righteousness of Christ to be able to stand before an infinitely holy God.] But she said she is saved. Now what self effort needs be expended on her part that is different from the time she wasn't saved. I think I'm reading her correctly and that is what she is asking. [So, the Spirit of God motivates us and empowers us to fight against our old sin nature, to put sin to death] Empowers us to fight? Hmmmm....I thought it was Christ in me who did the fighting and the overcoming of the world. Believing that to be so what then is my fight, ergo power for my self effort, in the matter of overcoming? Who do I overcome that He will one day reward me amd how is my 'overcoming' accomplished? Good reading on this is the Beatitudes; John 15-17 and the parables. And lets not forget Acts 2 and 1 Corth.13,14. |
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4 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Reformer Joe | 100161 | ||
"Won't work. Can't be sustained because it is from self effort that you attempt to perform the task regardless of how many graces you 'conjure up'." So grace is something we conjure up, now? "Isaiah' mention that there is none righteous has to do with a very specific time in Israel's history having to with their rebelliousness [which is as the sin of witchcraft; no righteousness here. No, not one was.]" So Paul lived long after Isaiah. What did he mean when he said "No one is righteous."? "But she said she is saved. Now what self effort needs be expended on her part that is different from the time she wasn't saved. I think I'm reading her correctly and that is what she is asking." Tell ya what: why don't we let her answer for herself? A novel concept, to be sure, but let's try it and see what happens... "Empowers us to fight?" I know that quoting extensive Scriptures will probably do no good here, since the cement in your mind has already set, but here goes: Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. --1 Timothy 6:12 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith --2 Timothy 4:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. --Romans 8:12-13 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. --1 Peter 2:11 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. --2 Corinthians 10:4 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. --Philippians 3:13-14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. --Romans 13:14 Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel --Philippians 1:27 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me. --Colossians 1:29 Fighting, warfare, striving, pressing on; all of these WE are commanded to do by the power that comes from the Spirit of Christ. Need more? --Joe! |
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5 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Ken hepting | 100168 | ||
[So grace is something we conjure up, now?] Absolutely, according to the way you explain it and the verses of scripture you use that don't support you. "Isaiah" mention that there is none righteous has to do with a very specific time in Israel's history having to with their rebelliousness [which is as the sin of witchcraft; no righteousness here. No, not one was.]" [So Paul lived long after Isaiah. What did he mean when he said "No one is righteous."?] None that can stand before God in his own righteousness because it isn't sufficient for that but his righteous deeds will be judged. Correct, so far? So we seek to be "blameless" in this life while enjoying the benefits of the righteousness of Christ that "justify" us and permit us to enter into His kingdom for "Sanctification"...Now......if we choose, that is....It's also called "abiding". "But she said she is saved. Now what self effort needs be expended on her part that is different from the time she wasn't saved. I think I'm reading her correctly and that is what she is asking." [Tell ya what: why don't we let her answer for herself? A novel concept, to be sure, but let's try it and see what happens...] I thought she wrote quite well, her position. "Empowers us to fight?" [I know that quoting extensive Scriptures will probably do no good here, since the cement in your mind has already set, but here goes:] OK [Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. --1 Timothy 6:12] Self-effort, perhaps? [I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith --2 Timothy 4:12] More self-effort? [So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. --Romans 8:12-13] You're getting warm [Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. --1 Peter 2:11] Self-effort, I'm afraid. Paul said aliens. What do you think that means? [For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. --2 Corinthians 10:4] Whose "we"? Sounds here that we don't war except from a Spiritual power that is not our own. Do you think it could be Christ in us that fights against what fights aginst Him? Could it be that we are to live with that "Hope" as a "lively stone built together in Him" while not giving in to fleshly cravings and thus overcome that which would rob us of His [that] relationship? [Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. --Philippians 3:13-14] I,I,I. Seems Paul saw a responsibility here that He commited himself to. [But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. --Romans 13:14] Ah...Now you're HOT! Read that verse again for the first time. [Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel --Philippians 1:27] [For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me. --Colossians 1:29] His power...from Himself and not from me therefore it is ALL Him and not just one of His "Graces" that elude and frustrate when attempt to be appropriated from "SELF-AWARENESS. [Fighting, warfare, striving, pressing on; all of these WE are commanded to do by the power that comes from the Spirit of Christ. Need more?] I am about to ask you that. |
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6 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Reformer Joe | 100182 | ||
"Self-effort, perhaps?" Okay, I am really trying to connect the dots of your thinking here. (Sentences with verbs would help, by the way.) I am quoting Paul and Peter, and your constant response is "self-effort." Is that what Paul and Peter are teaching, in your view? If so, are they wrong to teach it? --Joe! |
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7 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Ken hepting | 100185 | ||
[Is that what Paul and Peter are teaching, in your view? If so, are they wrong to teach it?] No..Quite the contary it's required of a son to be disciplined that he bring honor to his namesake. What Paul says is that in fighting the good fight of faith the fight has to do with retaining a singleness of eye on Christ. That's a fight to be sure because of the distractions and things that enter our minds by osmosus. Keeping our faith in Christ frees Him [by our faith in Him] to excercise His FAITH in us. "I live BY the FAITH OF the son of God"....Paul. See the woman with the issue of blood and ponder that for awhile. |
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8 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Reformer Joe | 100186 | ||
"NO" to which question? I asked two of them. You are being extremely unclear in your posts, Ken. At first you were arguing with me, and now it seems that in spite of the fact you are arguing with me, that you are saying the same thing I was saying before. Either you are not understanding what I am posting, or you are doing a horrible job of coherently presenting an opposing view, or you haven't got it down in your head what you yourself believe our role is in our sanctification. From the scattered ideas that appear in your post, it is pretty impossible to determine which is the case. " Keeping our faith in Christ frees Him [by our faith in Him] to excercise His FAITH in us." Please show me one instance where the Bible says that that the faith which saves us is HIS faith. I am asking for a direct quote here, not a rambling paragraph. "See the woman with the issue of blood and ponder that for awhile." What does that have to do with our struggle against sin in our lives? Not much, except for the source of the power. The Christian life is not a passive one. --Joe! |
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9 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Ken hepting | 100188 | ||
[Please show me one instance where the Bible says that that the faith which saves us is HIS faith. I am asking for a direct quote here, not a rambling paragraph.] First off I won't tolerate your snottiness. I trust I'm at least clear on that. And because you aren't clear on the rest....Well that's your problem..Study to show yourself approved. ["Keeping our faith in Christ frees Him [by our faith in Him] to excercise His FAITH in us."] Means exactly what it says. Jesus could do nothing in many cities because of unbelief. You do know what that means...I hope. Now if it can be seen that our faith isn't perfect in Him and His functioning in us is a direct result of that then you should be able to see His limitations and the cause of those limitations. Tell me, how does one quench the Holy Spirit? If you were full of the Holy Spirit you would be as Christ, wouild't you? Why aren't you full of the Holy Spirit? Who would be living and having His way in you if you were? Hmmm..Who is it that presently has his way with you? |
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10 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Reformer Joe | 100199 | ||
"First off I won't tolerate your snottiness. I trust I'm at least clear on that. And because you aren't clear on the rest....Well that's your problem..Study to show yourself approved." Great Scripture there. What book is it in? "If you were full of the Holy Spirit you would be as Christ, wouild't you?" No. "Who would be living and having His way in you if you were? Hmmm..Who is it that presently has his way with you?" I prescribe less bumper sticker theology...too many slogans get in the way of Truth. --Joe! |
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11 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Ken hepting | 100204 | ||
["If you were full of the Holy Spirit you would be as Christ, would't you?" No.] Really? I said "as" Christ, not Christ. So you should ponder who you might be. You're not making much sense here. We sing a chorous that goes "From Glory to Glory He's changing me, changing me. His Likeness and image perfected in me ,the life He has shown to the world." 2 Cor. 3:18 (NASB-U) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. "Who would be living and having His way in you if you were? Hmmm..Who is it that presently has his way with you?"] Since you say you don't know who would be dwelling in you to have His way leads me to believe you are something "extra-Christian" or "sub-Christian".. [I prescribe less bumper sticker theology...too many slogans get in the way of Truth.] I wonder if you can discern any kind of truth, Joe, Sorry but I think your dogma handups have muddied your waters.. |
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12 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | Reformer Joe | 100206 | ||
'Really? I said "as" Christ, not Christ. So you should ponder who you might be. You're not making much sense here.' Sure I am. I can be full of the Holy Spirit, but I will never be completely as Christ until I am in heaven. 'We sing a chorous that goes "From Glory to Glory He's changing me, changing me. His Likeness and image perfected in me ,the life He has shown to the world."' Okay. He IS changing me. I agree completely. That is a work in progress. I firmly believe that one day I will be identical in nature to Jesus' human nature. That day has not arrived yet. No one walking the earth is as Christ right now. " 2 Cor. 3:18 (NASB-U) But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit." Again, Christians ARE BEING transformed. The action is not complete. "Since you say you don't know who would be dwelling in you to have His way leads me to believe you are something "extra-Christian" or "sub-Christian".. " I never said anything of the sort. "I wonder if you can discern any kind of truth, Joe, Sorry but I think your dogma handups have muddied your waters.." Okay, quick poll for the rest of the Forum: am I imagining things when I say that the posts I have been responding to are scatterbrained? Is my discourse that "muddied"? --Joe! |
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13 | ?self effort 2 B holy now vs befor saved | Phil 3:9 | BradK | 100214 | ||
Joe: I concur with your thoughts. You're fine.The Q and A from Ken Hepting are not at all clear. Communication occurs when both parties clearly understand each other. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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