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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | If "heaven" is a metaphor | Phil 3:20 | Movingon | 240191 | ||
Doc says: “Citizenship of heaven is a metaphor -- not heaven itself.” As to Paul's remark that citizenship in heaven being a metaphor used by most Christians is the same as most Amillennial twisting of plain literal words to suit their own inventions. It's an outright denial of what Paul said. It is also the teaching of Christadelphianism, Seventh Day Adventists’ who accepts most of Ellen G. White’s teaching and the so called Jehovah’s witnesses, etc.. To deny our citizenship in heaven and it’s literalness is to rob the Lord's people of a great blessing. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word Sheol identifies the retaining place of the spirit and soul of the deceased as when the Lord spoke of the rich man and Lazerus (Lk. 16:19-31). According to Doc they are still there. But in Zech. 9:11 the Lord said of Israel’s New Covenant and those saved and preserved in Sheol: “…because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit.” That pit was described by the Lord in Lk. 16:19-31. The waterless pit was Sheol in the lower regions of the earth where Abraham and all who trusted God before the cross were preserved until their sins were paid for (Lk. 16:19-31). If I may be permitted to remind Doc, God said He would set His people free of Sheol. Paul speaks of their very deliverance when after the Lord’s death He descended into Sheol (Hades in Greek) and when He ascended and took those who had been prisoners until payment for their sins was accomplished. "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men." (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) And He Himself gave some [to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:8-12). According to Paul the Lord Jesus Christ is going to bring from heaven those whose soul and spirit were taken out of Hades. He then took them up to heaven with the Him at His Ascension. At the rapture He comes to resurrect their physical bodies to be joined with their soul and spirit from heaven. Then together those yet living at that time will also be changed and taken to heaven with those who will be changed to have a glorious body the same as the Lord Himself yet living at that time. “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Following are other passages showing soul’s in heaven. Ephesians 3:14-15 states, "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named." “So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:6-8). “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held…”(Rev. (6:9). “Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed” (Rev. 6:11). "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Rev. 7:13-14). In His grace Movingon |
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2 | If "heaven" is a metaphor | Phil 3:20 | Beja | 240192 | ||
Movingon, "is the same as most Amillennial twisting of plain literal words to suit their own inventions" Perhaps a little more graciousness to those we disagree with would be fitting. In Christ, Beja |
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3 | If "heaven" is a metaphor | Phil 3:20 | Movingon | 240193 | ||
Hi Beja Thanks for reminding me of my language. If I might ask a favor of you please read a response to my post on New Covenant beginning from DocTrinsograce. In His grace Movingon Following is Doc's note. Note: "Hi, movingon... We are not a forum created for debate, or the promulgation of unusual or aberrant teachings. Our gracious host, the Lockman Foundation, has us agree specifically to these things in the Terms of Use (TOU). I understand that you want to pedal your books -- although that is also eschewed in the TOU. Ours is necessarily an ecumenical association of Christendom. It is novel to hear from the fringe from time to time, but you might be received in a better light in some of the other forums in which you have participated. There, perhaps, the focus is more on novelty that on Scripture alone. In Him, Doc" |
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4 | If "heaven" is a metaphor | Phil 3:20 | Beja | 240199 | ||
Movingon, Sorry it took so long for my reply. I've read over most, but not all, of the thread you pointed me to. I am no judge or jury on this forum nor do I intend to present myself as such. But since you have asked me regarding it, or at least I think you have... It is quite easy to identify where that thread went wrong. The problem was that it began with an insincere question. When I say an insincere question I mean a question that was not actually seeking to learn something. You already had your answer resolved, you asked purely to bait somebody to answer so that you could then "instruct" the forum. Everytime this happens on the forum it leads to a confrontational thread. Usually it is the sign that the poster will stay briefly and argue much. I so hope you prove this wrong. I hope you stay long and are benefitted by this community. But I also hope you refrain from trying to make this forum your personal teaching ministry. So often somebody will come here and they don't come to study scripture and to grow with everybody. The arrive planning to teach us something they assume we have all missed. This never goes well. You will likely continue to find yourself in confrontational threads as long as it is your intentions to be a "teacher." So much more good could be done on this forum if we all simply had the mind to discuss particular texts of scripture together. But sadly more often we come to this forum not studying scripture, but to argue for our systematic theologies. Systematic theology is great, but when we debate systems rather than slowing down and discussing individual sections of scripture we learn little and debate much. In Christ, Beja |
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