Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Can you lose your salvation? | Eph 1:13 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 187838 | ||
Please note, the KJV reads, "after ye heard...after that ye believed, ye were sealed". (1) It looks "past tense" to me but that's no indication of "before the foundations of the world". A simple reading of the verse shows the sealing occurs after hearing and believing. (2) The book of Acts gives practical demonstrations of the Spirit's reception (and, therefore, sealing) occcurring after one has heard and believed the message. Also, none of the apostles are shown in Acts to have preached a sealing - the receiving of the Spirit - occurring from eternity past as you suggest, but clearly shows the opposite. (3) Ep 1:4. It seems to me you are misreading the verse, effectively ignoring the testimony of v.13 (as it reads) together with that of the whole epistle. (a) The "us" refers to believers, that is, those who after hearing, believed the gospel. (b) The stress of the divine choice refered to here is not of specific persons but of a specific pourpose: that believers should be "holy" and "without blame" in order to stand before "him in love". (4) An interpretation, as you suggest,(1) upends the clear reading of the verse; (2) reverses the way in which the text shows salvation is to be procured ("order of salvation" as some call it); and (3) proposes what seems to be an invented explanation of the Greek grammer to support an otherwise foreign understanding of the the plain reading of the verse in question. (5) What can be "biblically refute(d)" is not "what this verse says" (since the translation is not ambiguous) but your interpretation of it. |
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2 | Can you lose your salvation? | Eph 1:13 | Psalm 25 | 187848 | ||
Lookin, You have some good points; but: We must allow all of the scriptures to balance out each other. Anyone, you and I included, must not take isolated verses and interpret them by themselves. The other very significant issues is; do not rely on the English to correctly interpret what was written in the Greek. As we all know the Greek is very precise as our English is anything but. In order to have a clear understanding of what Ephesians 1:13 is saying we must take it in context with all of Ephesians chapter one. If God chose us before the foundation of the world and the Holy Spirit sealed us in Him in the past tense, then this was done by God's choice not ours. No matter how you look at "whom God choose and why," the scriptures are clear that it was done "and sealed," in our case, thousands of years before we were ever born. Of course the effect of being sealed was fully accomplished "after we were saved." God, knowing who will be (or would be depending on your interpretation) sealed those who will be saved thus securing their salvation. The whole point of how this discussion began was "the security of salvation," and if it can be lost by a born again believer. As I stated in my last response the Bible is very clear that "what God seals" can not be "unsealed." What God does no man can undo. And, the other side of that coin would be that if it were possible to loose what God had done then no one could get "re-saved" as the scriptures show it to be "a one time action in the past." Looking at what Romans chapters 1,2, and 3 shows that no man has ever sought God on his own; "no not one, not even one." Stop to think about it; it's much harder to stay saved in a totally hostile world than to get saved. We are not Satan's enemy til after we're saved. Would God then, after securing our salvation, leave it up to us to stay saved? If getting saved is a gift from God, would God then leave His sheep among wolves and expect us to "hang in there?" Would we as humans recruit and train a soldier then send him out to battle "all on his own?" God who sent His only begotten who suffered and died for us, has a specific plan for our life and eternity then "leave us to fend for ourselves?" I know of no mortal man who would do that to another man. No human General would ever send a soldier out in enemy territory and say "good luck hope you make it." Let alone God who sacrificed His only Son for us. The very idea that God went to all that trouble to save us would then expect us to stay saved. If we have not the ability to get saved, not even remotely, how would God then expect us to "stay saved." God who loved us and gave His all is now going to expect us to "not lose what He Himself gave us and paid the ultimate price for?" Something to think about........ Personally, I think the teaching that one can loose what God has done is the ultimate insult to a God who has clearly shown us our depravity and our total ineptness to accomplish anything. Hope this helps, my friend. Psalm 25 |
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3 | Can you lose your salvation? | Eph 1:13 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 187852 | ||
Ps25, Are you familiar with or a scholar of NT Greek? 1. Apparently, you have not read my note correctly regarding Ep 1:13. The main point is that the verse does not read that God Spirit-sealed us "before the foundation of the world." That is you interpretation, which goes beyond the text. As I stated, "A simple reading of the verse shows the sealing occurs after hearing and believing." Your contention that "the scriptures are clear that it was done 'and sealed' in our case, thousands of years before we were ever born" has no support in either vs.13 or vs.4 of Ep 1. The phrase in v.4, "chosen before the world was made" (TEV), contemplates (1) believers, not specific individuals, and (2) within the context of purpose, sealing. There is no reference to sealing. 2. You say, "what God 'seals' cannot be 'unsealed'." Well then, it should also hold true to say, "What God 'grafts in' cannot be 'ungrafted'," which flies right smack against Romans 11. 3. That "that no man has ever sought God on his own," is off the subject and has no bearing on this issue. 4. You're appeals to logic seem to be attemps to squeeze a round peg into a square hole, which effectively results in illogical jumps to conclusions that have no bearing on how the text in question actually reads. 5. With all due respect, if this discussion is to go forward, the first three points in my note #187838 need to be answered, which you totally ignored, having gone through some other unrelated avenue of argument. |
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4 | Can you lose your salvation? | Eph 1:13 | Psalm 25 | 187853 | ||
Lookin, I respectfully "give up." It is obvious that you have your mind made up as I, and numerous others, have given you proof text after proof text that you continue to argue about. The free will mentality is a "Johnny come lately." Historical Christianity considered it "a herisy." A look back in history, the first three centeries where they were closest to the teachings of the apostles original teachings, declare free will and the lose of eternal security a heresy and extremely false doctrine. So, my friend, I leave you in God's hand and hopefully you won't "jerk yourself out of His almighty, sovereign, purposeful will." It is the ultimate shame on us carnal, sinful human beings that think we can thwart God's purposes and presupose that our will and failures can render what God has done "ineffective." Psalm 25 |
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5 | Can you lose your salvation? | Eph 1:13 | Lookn4ward2Heavn | 187859 | ||
1. I hadn't discussed church history (whatever happened to sola scriptura?") except for menyioning Acts. That's jumping over the issue. I was discussing how the Bible reads. 2. Neither was I discussing "free will" or the lofty notion of "eternal security". Again, I was discussing the reading of Ep 1:13, the Bible. |
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6 | Can you lose your salvation? | Eph 1:13 | mark d seyler | 187862 | ||
Hi Lookin, Just for what its worth, I can think of at least a few citations from the early church writers that actually do plainly state their belief that God insists that those who are saved be willing to receive salvation. For what its worth. I like one thing I heard about this. They had the same Bible that we do. Love in Christ, Mark PS - I commend you on your logical and ordered responses in this thread. |
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