Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Heaven or hell predetermined? | Eph 1:11 | Beja | 223111 | ||
Lightedsteps, Rom 11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace There was a remnant. It specifically states it came to by through God's gracious choice. So specifically stated that God "chose" this remnant. Then it goes so far to say what the bases was for how God chose them. It was purely by grace. In other words it was not based on anything good which was in us or done by us whether in the past or forseen to be done in the future, but purely grace. Rom 9:10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. He gives an example of two children yet in the womb. Why does he choose this example? Because there is no way that these two could yet have done ANYTHING to earn God's favor yet. Same parents, same lineage, same everything, no deeds done. Yet God chooses one and not the other. Then he specifically asks if this is fair for God to do. Now if I was missunderstanding Paul, then this would be the perfect time for Paul to correct us all. Paul could have easily said, "Is it fair? NO you are missunderstanding me, I don't mean to say that God actually predestines in that sense!" But Paul didn't correct it. On the contrary he affirms that God has the right to choose one and reject the other based on nothing but his choice. Paul comes to the conclusion that God's sovereign choosing unto salvation is neither "ultimately" dependant on man's doing anything, or man's choosing/willing anything, but it is ultimately dependent on God who chooses to have mercy on some. Yet we would all scream out, "This isn't fair!" But isn't that exactly what Paul addresses next? Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? Look! He brings up our exact objection, is this fair for God to do? Once again, if we were missunderstanding Paul, then again here is his moment to correct us. He could have answered his own objection by simply saying, "No no, you missunderstand me, I'm not suggesting election/predestination/etc." But once again he doesn't do this but rather says, "Who are you to talk back to God!" He actually reaffirms that God does in fact have the right to do this. Look carefully at this verse in 2 Thess. 2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Now, focus on the sentence structure what were we chosen for? We were chosen for salvation from the beginning through sanctification by the Spirit faith in the truth We were not simply chosen based on some forseen faith, we were chosen for that faith. We were chosen to be saved through faith. The defenses from scripture go on and on and on and on. I have long since come to realize that many people will not desire to believe in predestination. But please, lets not say there is nothing in the Scriptures to suggest it. In Christ, Beja |
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2 | Heaven or hell predetermined? | Eph 1:11 | lightedsteps | 223122 | ||
Brother Beja According to the verses you have used, there is a remnant, (Rom.11:1-6). You are right again when you say God chose them by his grace. You are correct, God is sovereign, and the election is purely by grace. No argument from me:-) What you have just posted Rom.11:1-6 which is talking about the Jews of that time, the remnant which is being spoken of are clearly the Jewish believers, which are identified in Rom.11:5,7, therefore this passage of scripture doesn't then apply to us of today, in other words "WE" are not the remnant spoken of in these passages, they were. There was a specific point being made by Paul about the Jews in this chapter wasn't there? There are only two verses in the New Test. speaking of a remnant, both are speaking of the Jewish believers Rom.9:27, and Rom.11:5. You are right once more, nowhere does Paul say, STOP, WAIT HOLD IT you are misunderstanding me ! ! So I will, stop, wait, hold it, you are misunderstanding me. Here again is my original statement. "However even Ephesians 1:4-6 does not speak of a remnant, chosen by His own counsel, before creation, for salvation. As a matter of fact, I can't find anywhere in scripture where it does say what you have just espoused." Please correct me if I am wrong, in grammar, the use of the word (remnant), denotes that there was originally a whole, therefore a remnant would then constitute only a small part of that whole, would it not? At this point I have to say, if the statement which was made, was made with the broadest possible understanding ie, that all Christians for the last two thousand years, constitute only a remnant of all of the people ever created, then I would have to concur with this belief also. Grace be unto you lightedsteps |
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3 | Heaven or hell predetermined? | Eph 1:11 | Beja | 223123 | ||
Dear Lightedsteps, This was the phrase that I was responding to: "However even the Ephesians verses, do not speak of a remnant chosen by His own counsel, before creation, for salvation. As a matter of fact, I can't find anywhere in scripture where it does say what you have just espoused." You stated nowhere in scripture is this stated. In response to Romans chapter 11, after speaking of the Israelites in that time, he says that at the present time a there is also a remnant according to God's gracious choice. I believe that when Paul says at the present time, he does in fact mean at the present time. He is not suggesting that in the time around the writing of this letter there is a God chosen remnant, but in 2000ad there will not be a God chosen remnant. Yes he is speaking of Jews here, but do you mean to suggest that God does predestine Jews for salvation, but does not predestine gentiles? As I stated, I do not intend to convince you of election. I think trying to do so would likely be less than edifying and possibly in violation of the user agreement since we agree not to argue about any issue that is knowingly devisive. People may disagree whether this topic fits that description. But what I do intend to accomplish is to not let the above quote go uncorrected. If people choose not to believe in election it does not mean that they should pretend there is no scriptural basis for it. I whole heartedly believe nobody can loose their salvation, but I don't treat lightly those who do. Why? Because there are a lot of passages that, in the absence of a lot of scripture restraining our interpretation, can in fact strongly lead us to that conclusion. The truth is the amount of scripture that indicates God chooses from the foundation of the world, individuals whom he will effectually bring about the salvation of while he passes over others is overwhelming. I do not intend to argue whether it is in the verses quoted by Doc, but simply to address the suggestion that it is nowhere to be found. In Christ, Beja |
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