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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214869 | ||
Val, You have said so much in that post. I wish to honor what you've asked with regards to dropping labels, but to fill in what dispensationals think with regards to Israel and the Church...they believe that the Old Testament promises are specifically for national Israel. The two should never be confused. My stance that I"m arguing is that the promises for Israel made in the Old testament, are really promises that are fulfilled in Christ and in the Church. That is the heart of what is being discussed and disagreed upon. Now, those who think as I do, do not look to national Israel to fulfill a hosts of promises. However, God is not done with ethnic Israel in this view point either. Paul is clear that they will be restored (Romans 11) but the implications of that restoration is not a new successful national identity, but rather a large spread conversion to Christ. The people of God, and the promises of God, are found in Christ and in the Church. That's the heart of the disagreement without the passage work explaining why. I understand that somebody who hears this would wonder why anybody would ever come to such a conclusion, shouldn't we just understand Israel to be Israel? And the answer to that is really that it seems the new testament writers do not see fit to make such a distinction. In my understanding, the New Testament offers see all the promises to Israel fulfilled in Christ and the Church. All I can say is as you continue your study, watch how they quote and make use of the Old Testament. Now, the danger in this view is still absent. Why would we take land from Israel? That doesn't fit in anybody's theology. But you are correct that this effectively takes the spot light off of the nation of Israel and puts it onto the church. There is not a plan for the Church, and a plan for Israel. There is one plan for the people of God and that has always been salvation by grace through faith in the promises of Christ. I'm not sure about our capability of carrying this discussion further, I think you and I are pretty clear about the differences of the views now between the two of us. But we'd have to work through a great many scriptures to talk it out. Your last post was very clear and excellently presented your view point, but you also illustrated just what a massive discussion we've begun. Whether we like it or not, we've embarked upon systematic theology at this point rather than single passage exegisis. In Love, Beja |
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2 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Val | 214873 | ||
Dear Beja, I am up for the challenge. We can start anywhere you want, New Testament or Old Testament. I was particularly wanting to look at the passages you hang your hat on so to speak that you feel prove your viewpoint. I really am trying to understand your thoughts on this topic. Sincerely, Val | ||||||
3 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214954 | ||
Dear Val, Alright, I've got a few in mind, but give me a bit to collect my thoughts on it. I think we are both in agreement that the author of the book of Hebrews in chapter 8 is stating that this "new covenant" is entirely a Christian covenant. It is the very New covenant that Christ's blood inaugerated in the gospels. Now, if we agree on this, next go back to Jeremiah chapter 31 and read about the promise that the new covenant was coming. And notice that this new covenant is explicitly promised to Israel and Judah. There is no mention of the gentiles in relation to this covenant. Now, how is it that the author of Hebrews sees this covenant as fulfilled in Christ, which is clearly a covenant made to all those in Christ, the church? This is just one example of what I'm talking about. The New Testament routinely takes the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament and claims them for the followers of Christ. My arguement in our discussion will be that these promises were always pointing to what was going to happen in Christ and in the Church. But at the time people could no have fully grasped what was going to take place. They couldn't have understood that God's national kingdom was always something that was meant to prefigure his Spiritual kingdom. This is the kingdom he referred to speaking to Pilate when he said that, My kingdom is not of this world." That was the intense confusion over his coming, they all thought He was going to begin a physical worldly kingdom, but the surprise was all along the prophets had meant the kingdom of Christianity, in which Christ even now sits as king enthroned at the right hand of the Father in heaven. That is the view I will be arguing, for now consider the Hebrews 8 new covenant in relation to Jeremiah 31. In Love, Beja In Love, Beja |
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4 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Val | 214961 | ||
Dear Beja, Ok, I will print out your comments and study the passages. Thanks, Val | ||||||
5 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 217267 | ||
I am resurrecting a long dead post here, but I do so because I left it promising to return with some scripture support for it, since then I have had deaths of friends, and abundant interruptions from my church. I've been very swamped and I apologize that I simply abandoned the thread when I had been asked some very fair questions. I had been in a discussion with Val, and a Keily if I recall correctly. Now I finally have just a bit of time and wish to go ahead and post some scriptures for consideration. The discussion was about dispensationalism and the idea that the Church is the true Isreal. What I'd like to put forward right now is an arguement from scriptre that the Church, not Israel, rightly claims the promises made to Abraham. These promises were two fold 1) Promises of Land 2)Promises to be the tool through which He blesses the whole world. For sake of time and space I leave you each to look up the verses I reference here. Here is the defense: Who receives the promises to Abraham? The Church or Israel? First, note that there were promises specifically to the nation of Israel concerning land, however these promises were conditional on their obedience, and they were fulfilled, then later lost through disobedience. Deut 30:16-20 Joshua 21:43-45 However, in Genesis there were unconditional eternal promises made to Abraham. These are the promises we are concerned with. Who were the unconditional promises made to? First we see that the promises to Abraham were made to him and to his seed. Gen 15:8 Gen 17:6-8 Gen 26:4 Gen 26:4 Gen 28:14 It is extremely importand to note that in every instance the word "seed" is singular, not plural. How does Paul interpret the promises in Genesis? Galatians 3:16 says that the "seed" that was being spoken of is Christ. In other words, the unconditional promises in Genesis are not promises to the nation of Israel, but the promises were made to Jesus Christ, according to Paul. Paul says that the law, including its conditional temporary land promises to Israel that are made throughout Exodus, Num, and Deut. were all temporary promises made while we were waiting for the one who owned the eternal promises. Galatians 3:19. If you then look at Galatians 3:22-29, especially verses 22,26-29. Paul then goes on to explain that to the extent that we are in Christ through faith, we join Christ as heirs of these promises. In verse 29 he actually says that "if you belong to Christ, the you are Abraham's SEED, heirs according to promise." Who was the promise made to? Abraham and his SEED, which paul has here explained, the seed is Christ and those who belong to Christ. So the great promises to Abraham belong to the church, not the nation of Israel. I hope this is helpful, In Christ, Beja |
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6 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | DocTrinsograce | 217269 | ||
You asked, "Who receives the promises to Abraham? The Church or Israel?" False dichotomy... the proper answer is that the elect receive the promises (Galatians 3:29). If need be, why not start this under a different thread... the old one is way too long! |
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7 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 217270 | ||
Doc, I almost did restart it, but I feared some would want to know what came before and would need the connection. There are many who believe that the Jews are destined to receive rewards outside of those which are to all believers through Christ by virtue of their being Jews. The argue that they have specially land promises coming especially, because they believe that the promises to Abraham are specifically to national Israel, not to all elect in Christ. It is this view that I am attempting to refute. So given that context I think the question is a fair one. But truely, in "church" I do mean all elect of all time, including those of Jewish decent. In Christ, Beja |
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8 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | DocTrinsograce | 217300 | ||
Hi, Pastor Beja... I see. Long threads seem to bifurcate repeatedly, diverging from the topic at hand. Hence, I will say something that diverges from the topic at hand. :-) Okay, I'll only do it for a moment, but I'll assert it most strenuously: All of the elect, whoever they may be from Adam through the last human to be born, will be saved through only one means: through grace along, by faith alone, in the atonement of Christ alone. The notion that there are various means of salvation is promulgated by various groups, but it does not hold up to the light of Scripture. There is simply no other means by which a man may stand before a holy God. It is the single means that He Himself has provided. Okay, back on topic. :-) Thank you for your indulgence. Please continue, sir. In Him, Doc |
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