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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214856 | ||
Dear Val, First, I much welcome the term "inhouse debate" as I know well you and I are like minded on the great majority of our faith, as shown by many posts. Second, perhaps what I said was a mildly bold statement, but lets not make it more so than it really was. What I meant was simply this: in the course of reading scripture I have found dispensational thought to not measure up. Dispensational thought aside, is this not what we want from a Christian? To constantly let their view points be corrected by reading scripture? It was not a claim to being a master of all scripture or a master of all theology, rather a statement that as I have read I have found scripture to have a view point that was contrary to dispensational thought. (I say dispensational thought, but I am specifically thinking of their view point of Israel and the Church.) Third, you said that my view was a dangerous one, and I am uncertain as to which of my view points you refer to. I've talked about Israel/church, Law as it relates to a Christian, and tithing. I am thinking you meant the Israel/church view point and will answer this post assuming that to be the case, but please clarify which view point and also share with me what danger you believe is in it. Finally, a brief offering of passages for you to consider. I've mentioned these in my previous post. Romans 4, 6 and 11 specifically are worth reading. As you read through these ask yourself whether it sounds like Paul is seeing Israel and the Church as two distinct things from beggining to end or rather if he sees Christians as fulfilling what was going on in Israel, or the true children spoken of with regards to abrahams children, or something grafted in, etc. Also there are verses like Galatians 3:7, and Philippians 3:3 to consider. Finally we must account for the fact that very often the apostles themselves do exactly what a dispensational thinkers says they must not do! Namely they take a prophecy which was clearly in reference to Israel and they say it was to be applied to the church. How are we to understand this? A dispensationalist will typically say, "well, the apostles can do what they want since they are inspired." Which may well be true, but what if they did this not because they were inspired to read scripture in a way none of the rest of us could predict, but rather they understood the church to be the rightful and proper heirs to all the promises of God to Israel? The view that the old testament was a series of failed dispensations between God and man in my opinion leaves us with a horribly malnourished view of scripture and sense of God. Granted under that view point all these dispensations were known to be going to fail ahead of time by God. Rather the view point which I would commend to you sees the entire of scripture as one plan, with one end (the cross), exalting one figure (christ.) The promises were always pointing towards the Cross and Christ. Hope this helps clarify and I very much look forward to hearing your concerns with this view as your voice is certainly one I hold with respect on this forum. In Love, Beja |
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2 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Val | 214866 | ||
Dear Beja, thank you for your willingness to discuss these scriptures. I have admired your explanations of parts of scriptures to the questioners in former discussions. Of course it is ok to disagree and not break fellowship on this particular topic. I would like to discuss it civilly and perhaps both of us could learn from the discussion. As to your comments on dispensational view point, I must say this leaves me personally with more confusion as I do not fully understand the label. Since it appears you have a bone to pick with them I would suggest you find one of the best ones you can and have a go with them. Rather than trying to label each person as to their answers seems like an unnecessary endeavor. Anyway, enough on that could we just stick to the scriptures and discuss them and leave the labels out of it and just maybe I can follow your thoughts. Thanking you in advance for that consideration. I am in full support of the nation of Israel and the danger I see in interpretations that say that God is through with Israel is upsetting for a variety of reasons. Some of them though not exhaustive for myself personally is the prophecies which direct a future plan for Israel as a nation, secondly, God Himself somewhere said that Israel is the apple of His eye, Thirdly, we are told that God Himself will judge nations as to how they treat Israel. He did this in ancient times and I believe personally He will do it again. Fourthly, the covenant God made with Abraham is a promise that includes a land. This covenant is described as an everlasting covenant. Fifthly, the church is under the New covenant. This is a completely separate covenant, one which any person of any nation is under if they place their belief in Messiah Jesus. Sixthly, the promise God made with Israel/Jacob is one that He made with them not because of anything extraordinary in them but because of His name. Even though they rejected Messiah as a nation, He will keep His promise/covenant for His name. Seventhly, context is the first rule of interpretation, therefore, if God is dealing with the nation Israel and this is an example for people of all nations what is it that God wants us to know. I would say he wants us to love and worship Him as God, creator of heaven and earth, and not worship any other false god. Obedience to His commands which is what He required of his nation Israel is what He requires of us. Eighthly, many people who hold to a future for the nation of Israel view your interpretation that God is through with Israel dangerous because if your wrong then we may treat Israel in a way not according to God’s plan, i.e., making them give away their land, which God has given them. This would bring judgment to those who make them do this. Living in this land and fearing God’s wrath is the reason it is a dangerous view in my personal opinion according to the verses referring to the land. Ninthly, the view that Paul is seeing Israel and the church as two distinct things; yes he does. The Ephesians book explains the mystery of the church; jew and gentile in one body. He is speaking of individuals which make up the church not nations. Tenthly, the book of Galatians explains what genuine faith is and how it is obtained. Abraham was a man of faith and this is explained. It has always been by grace through faith. It is by grace, a gift, something that God did by providing His Son Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins and raised Him up the third day showing His satisfaction with the perfect sacrifice of Jesus the Lamb of God. Faith is how we obtain this gift and Paul shows Abrahams faith in his obedience to God by taking his son to the mountain and offering him there believing the promise of God making him a great nation and to do that God would raise Isaac from the dead if need be. So those who had a faith like Abraham are the true Israel. We know God has always had a believing remnant and not all who are in the nation of Israel had true faith, i.e. those whom God destroyed in the wilderness for their unbelief. I will look at Philippians 3:3 later. If you would like to pursue each scripture individually that is what I am best at. I have given you the big picture of my interpretations of my studying. We can look at each point you stand on in scripture and discuss it. That is the only way I know how to study the bible. Your sister in Christ - Val |
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3 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Vintage68 | 214867 | ||
Hi Val Israel is the apple of Gods eye. Therefore, anything that has, or will happen to Israel, God has allowed. Nothing that happens to Israel is out of the control of God. No unforeseen disaster, such as the giving of land, to the Palestinians, will put Israel into any danger that God would not be aware of. It's all in Gods plan. Vintage68 |
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4 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Val | 214871 | ||
Dear Vintage68, yes I agree. Thanks Val | ||||||