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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214801 | ||
The answers being given which argue that malachi chapter 3 doesn't apply to the church are arguing from a dispensational view point with regards to the church and Israel. As dispensational thought falls, so do their answers. I leave you all to your own thoughts on this. As for me I think it does apply to us. In Love, Beja |
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2 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Val | 214812 | ||
Dear Beja, how do you view Israel and the church? Could you explain this as it relates to the Malachi 3 scripture? Thank you. | ||||||
3 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214833 | ||
To all who responded to me, My apologies for taking so long to respond! I'm on vacation currently. It seems the discussion has left me behind to the point that my answers now are moot but I'll say a few things. First let me preface with a few points. 1. I in no way ment for my brief answer to be smug. My only intentions were to bring up that there was an entire theological presupposition behind the answers given and if you wanted to be sure of the answers, you had to agree with the presuppositions. I have my own view through which I read scripture, so I don't mean to insult anybody by saying you have presuppositions. 2. I highly respect the view that says we are now to be cheerful givers and that will typically manifest itself in giving much more than a tithe. I don't agree with it, but I certainly respect the brothers and sisters who hold that view. It shows a good heart even if I am correct in thinking it shows flawed assumptions. 3. Finally, I offer further thoughts concerning the church and Israel only in the spirit of enjoyable discussion. My view is that when Christ came what constituted the people of God changed. Not replaced, changed. The people of God was no longer a national identity, but with the influx of all believers of all peoples it grew into the church. Galatians 3, Romans 4 and 9 and 11 reflect this view point. All the promises of Israel belong to us, the church, not the nation. (with a few exceptions that are extremely short term promises.) So the old testament is not ancient history that has no meaning to us because it was God's working with a different people. That is the story of God dealing with his people, of whom we are a part. The question comes then, am I saying we still are under the law? Not in the same sense the jews were. The law of sacrifices, the laws of ceremonial distinctions for the sake of keeping jews visably seperate from other nations, no, those have nothing to do with us except to teach us that we as Christians are to be distinct, or to teach us as Christians something about what Christ's sacrifice meant. The moral laws however, not to steal, not to covet, not to murder...shall any of you argue that those are not the expectations of our God on us today? They no longer carry the sting of judgement for those who are in Christ but as an expectation they do. In fact living in sin with regards to these things without repentance is a pretty good indication that somebody has never come to Christ by faith and repentance. So the question then becomes where do tithes fall into place in this scheme? My opinion, its a moral issue. So in summary, I believe the Church is the true Israel. Why? Because I think Paul and therefore the new testament teaches that. And IF that is what the New Testament teaches, all our arguements mean nothing. I don't care how much or how little you think it makes sense, I intend to subject my thinking to correction by scripture. I use to hold a dispensational view, after enough reading of scripture, I saw that needed correcting. Sorry if this is unclear, I am on vacation without my books, also clearly I mean to offer this as explination of my views rather than a detailed defense. In Love, Beja |
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4 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Val | 214854 | ||
Dear Beja, there is an inhouse debate in christendom as to this topic. To declare that you have it right because you have read the scriptures thoroughly is a rather bold statement. Many including myself believe that your interpretation is a dangerous one. You reference that Paul teaches this. May I ask you to explain this statement with appropriate verses and your comments. Sincerely, Val | ||||||
5 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214856 | ||
Dear Val, First, I much welcome the term "inhouse debate" as I know well you and I are like minded on the great majority of our faith, as shown by many posts. Second, perhaps what I said was a mildly bold statement, but lets not make it more so than it really was. What I meant was simply this: in the course of reading scripture I have found dispensational thought to not measure up. Dispensational thought aside, is this not what we want from a Christian? To constantly let their view points be corrected by reading scripture? It was not a claim to being a master of all scripture or a master of all theology, rather a statement that as I have read I have found scripture to have a view point that was contrary to dispensational thought. (I say dispensational thought, but I am specifically thinking of their view point of Israel and the Church.) Third, you said that my view was a dangerous one, and I am uncertain as to which of my view points you refer to. I've talked about Israel/church, Law as it relates to a Christian, and tithing. I am thinking you meant the Israel/church view point and will answer this post assuming that to be the case, but please clarify which view point and also share with me what danger you believe is in it. Finally, a brief offering of passages for you to consider. I've mentioned these in my previous post. Romans 4, 6 and 11 specifically are worth reading. As you read through these ask yourself whether it sounds like Paul is seeing Israel and the Church as two distinct things from beggining to end or rather if he sees Christians as fulfilling what was going on in Israel, or the true children spoken of with regards to abrahams children, or something grafted in, etc. Also there are verses like Galatians 3:7, and Philippians 3:3 to consider. Finally we must account for the fact that very often the apostles themselves do exactly what a dispensational thinkers says they must not do! Namely they take a prophecy which was clearly in reference to Israel and they say it was to be applied to the church. How are we to understand this? A dispensationalist will typically say, "well, the apostles can do what they want since they are inspired." Which may well be true, but what if they did this not because they were inspired to read scripture in a way none of the rest of us could predict, but rather they understood the church to be the rightful and proper heirs to all the promises of God to Israel? The view that the old testament was a series of failed dispensations between God and man in my opinion leaves us with a horribly malnourished view of scripture and sense of God. Granted under that view point all these dispensations were known to be going to fail ahead of time by God. Rather the view point which I would commend to you sees the entire of scripture as one plan, with one end (the cross), exalting one figure (christ.) The promises were always pointing towards the Cross and Christ. Hope this helps clarify and I very much look forward to hearing your concerns with this view as your voice is certainly one I hold with respect on this forum. In Love, Beja |
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6 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214865 | ||
Beja, Thank you for your responses which are continuing to make this into a very interesting thread. I would like to clarify my views to you, since I get the feeling from reading your posts that you are in disagreement with my post for reasons that simply do not exist. May I begin by quoting you from your post to Val: "Rather the view point which I would commend to you sees the entire of scripture as one plan, with one end (the cross), exalting one figure (christ.) " I was not trying in my post to say that there was anything more than one plan, nor do I exalt any more than Christ, however, the 'end' which you describe above, -to me it is only the beginning of the end. I have brought to this forum before my viewpoint of the entire Bible as being God's plan for the redemption of mankind. In the first chapter, we have man and God together in paradise and all is good, very good. In the last chapter of the Bible, we have man and God together in paradise for eternity. So what we have in God's plan for redemption is a Master Plan, not a series of failed plans. If I may be allowed the liberty to quote you again, "The view that the old testament was a series of failed dispensations between God and man in my opinion leaves us with a horribly malnourished view of scripture and sense of God. I would like to bring up now from Merriam Webster's the (first of three) definition of dispensation, for your consideration: 1 a: a general state or ordering of things ; specifically : a system of revealed commands and promises regulating human affairs b: a particular arrangement or provision especially of providence or nature Now if I could ask you to pay particular attention to the word "System" I would like to offer the example of our own digestive "System". This is nothing more than a group of individual organs that work together to produce one function. This is done not by simultaneous action, but in a sequential order. First the body dispenses saliva into the food and later dispenses enzymes to further separate the good from the bad. So, upon adopting this viewpoint, God's plan becomes a systematic arrangement of promises rather than a series of failed dispensations. Thank you for your consideration, Lord bless keliy |
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7 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214868 | ||
Keily, Perhaps I am in fact misunderstanding your stance. To help me clarify, could you tell me what you see as the means of acquiring salvation in the various dispensations. Perhaps this question will not help me to understand, but it might drag out the distinctives in your stance for me. In Love, Beja |
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8 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214872 | ||
Dear Beja, There has been many differences in viewpoints that concern the Church and Israel among many believers. I see this Forum as a way we can either resolve differences or fortify our own beliefs. With over 4,000 Protestant denominations, There is likely no way we will come into harmony using an electronic format, So I will offer you my beliefs, question other's and respect them all just the same. I was going to write a post anyway to clarify dispensationalsism because it seemed to me that if you and I are not in agreement of what dispensationalism is, we can never understand each other's viewpoints regarding the evidence for dispensationalsism. I define it as an interpretive framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible. My brand of theology is based on grammatical/historical methods of interpretation. Interpreting Grammatically means you must define words and concepts according to the rules of grammar of the language being used, including consideration of context. Interpreting Historically means simply that passages must be interpreted in the way the people would take them at the time the human author wrote them. This type of interpretation forces you to realize that God has a specific plan for Israel that is yet to be fully completed. God has another plan for the Church that is also in the process of being fulfilled. Thus, "Dispensationalism", amounts to God working in different ways at different times with different groups, although all are saved by grace through faith. So Jews in the O.T. were under the Law, while Christians in the N.T. are not; two different dispensations. To answer your question on " the means of acquiring salvation in the various dispensations", I believe that our views are alike. Scripture plainly teaches that there will be a great final judgement of believers as well as unbelievers. Christ will proclaim their eternal destiny as they stand before His judgement seat in their resurrected bodies. This can be found in Rev 20:11-15. Blessings, keliy |
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9 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | Beja | 214952 | ||
Dear Keily, You've provided me just the very thing to finally drag out exactly the difference in our view points. You said, "Interpreting Historically means simply that passages must be interpreted in the way the people would take them at the time the human author wrote them." I have spent most of my life in complete agreement with this statement. This statement leads to the views you hold, the assumptions I hold, lead to my particular views. You are exactly correct that the people at their time would have heard these promises to regard a national Israel. However, it is my belief, that the apostles, Jesus, and the new testament as a whole disagree with this. I believe those took all these promises and saw the fulfillment of these promises in Christ and in the Church. I hold to your statement in almost all areas of interpretation except the promises granted to Israel which I see as our promises in Christ. That is the heart of where we have been disagreeing the past several days. In my discussion with Val it has now become my task to give some specific support for why I say that is so. That will be coming if not today (two days of vacation left!) but I'll probably get around to it sooner than when I go home. As I said, its hard for me to look down on your view since all good sense and just an honest approach to scripture would certainly begin with such a view. I've just been convinced (rightly or wrongly) that scripture doesn't hold that view. And thank you for your explination, it sounds like we do hold the same view on salvation in the various times. In Love, Beja |
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10 | Is tithing a command for chriatians? | 2 Cor 9:7 | keliy | 214959 | ||
Dear Beja, Thank you for your kind response. I did not know you were on vacation when your initial post came through. I did see this thread as having the potential for brewing up some troublesome complexity, but now that I know you will be back to your office in a few days, I will wait and watch for another response from you then. I had felt my response to your request was a little fragmented and hard to follow, and I apologize for that. In my next post I will have a better trained thought pattern. I myself am grateful to this Forum and all the brothers and sisters who are helping me to grow in my convictions. I also wish to thank you personally for your teaching and your understanding. Enjoy what's left of your respite, and Lord Bless, keliy |
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