Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Women in the church | 1 Cor 14:34 | Rowdy | 109053 | ||
Let's remember the context of this guidance. Here Paul is addressing the christians in Corinth about the way they were abusing their spiritual gifts, especially with each other and during their worship assemblies. During these gatherings, his Divine guidance is correct: women are to maintain silence with the exception of course in their singing. But remember Aquila and Priscilla in their taking Apollos home for correcting. There, Priscilla was able to voice her words to a brother where respect could be maintained. This guidance of women's silence in the public worship setting is consistent with the balance of the Bible, i.e. the leadership of the elders and the asking of questions to their husbands. Now, please don't misunderstand. It's very important to remember I'm not advocating chavunism here, at least not man's. This is God's creation and the order of things in His universe. However, men in general CANNOT abuse and lord this power over women for they have a very important function in the Lord's church. Ladies are welcome to perform almost any function outside the worship assembly. Our ladies teach class and assist with the Deacons in their ministries. Women conduct their own classes, go to retreats and support their husbands with absolutely vital enthusiasm. Without their support, these men would not and could not possibly be near as fruitful or productive for the Lord. There's nothing more powerful than a dynamic couple, married for many years, setting the proper example for other younger couples, giving advice and love and dispensing an occasional bit of stern encouragement. I know this so well because I've been on the receiving end several times and can truthfully say, men AND women such as these have saved our marriage many times over. I look forward to the day when my wife and I can do the same and repay the Lord for his kindness and gentle guidance. The bottom line: God's pattern works when you work His pattern. |
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2 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | stjones | 109059 | ||
Hi, Rowdy; I've asked before for a way to harmonize Paul's instructions with the rest of the NT. The usual answer is that I'm "throwing out" part of the Bible to suit my own preferences. I'm not interested in throwing out chapter 14, but here are some other parts of the Bible I'm not throwing out either: Jesus said "where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." (Matthew 18:20) Surely when we are in worship, Jesus is present with us. Paul said "all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galations 3:27-28) So when we are together in worship, in Jesus' presence, gathered together in the Spirit, these earthly distinctions do not apply. "There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:4-6) This oneness - this unity and equality in Christ - permeates our entire existence. "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1) The freedom for which Christ set us free is for all of the body of Christ, for all believers. None of these passages expresses a unique idea not found elsewhere in the Bible. Indeed, these pasages express ideas of Christian unity, equality, and freedom that are found throughout the New Testament. So how does this isolated message of division, inequality, and a new law that applies only to women fit with the rest of the New Testament? Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones |
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3 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | Rowdy | 109062 | ||
I can only respond with a confirmation of all you have cited. I don't see any problem with it but there again I did grow up in a christian home of like faith so all the women in my life (in the church) have all lived by this guidance. It has not been perfect all the time, especially when I went overseas where we didn't have church leadership, elders throughout that community. But I do think it is fairly clear here throughout God's word. Christ expects His body to be organized and follow the examples and the few simple commands that are in His Word. Remember His Word is what is going to judge us on Judgement Day. I don't see this as being an isolated case of "division or inequality." God's Word has always appeared to be slightly in favor of man over women but that DOES NOT mean men are superior to women. It's just a case of putting the cart behind the horse; that's the order of God's universe. Again, let me emphasize God's pattern works when you follow it. My question to you: Would you suggest that we NOT follow God's will when it's clear throughout His Word, that's what He wants us to do? |
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4 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | stjones | 109077 | ||
Hi, Rowdy; Thanks for the reply. As I said, that's the usual response. But no, I wouldn't suggest that we not follow God's word. I would suggest we make every effort to understand what God's word - ALL of God's word - is telling us to do. If God's word teaches that we are one in Christ, that in Christ there is no male nor female, that we live under grace and not under the Law, then I want to be very careful about telling my sister in Christ that that those things don't apply to her as they do me because there's a fragment of the Law still in force that says I can talk and she can't: "They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says." (1 Corinthians 14:34) A statement and its negation can't both be true. Yet those who would silence women seem to have no trouble with the idea that with respect to believers, God ordains unity, equality, and freedom and God ordains division, inequality, and Law. I can't wrap my brain around that idea. Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones |
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5 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | Rowdy | 109079 | ||
I guess my only response would be to invite you over and show you how it's done. I actually try to get the ladies (some of them much older than myself) to speak up during my Bible classes and most of them refuse. Every once in a while one of them (especially the younger ones) will open up and ask a question and we all (the whole class) responds with kindness and great open minds. That's perfectly OK with the scriptures as that's a classroom setting. Now don't get me wrong; it's true, we don't have any ladies leading classes with men as students but we're very much open to their participating from the classroom floor. But if they have any questions during the worship assembly, they're encouraged to communicate that thru the men folk, preferbly their husband. We have a time when Notes are solicited from everyone which are channeled to the elder who goes over them and announcements at the end of our service but this is just one way to do it. Oh, one more setting is the business meeting for the whole congregation, hosted by the elders to discuss miscellaneous topics, questions on almost anything are raised and discussed at length. I like to think we're somewhere in the middle of the spectrum on most issues, as long as we're talking about Bible based issues. Let me know which city you're in and I'll find you a congregation (or at least I'll try) that might show you what it's like. Let me know. God bless. |
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6 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | stjones | 109085 | ||
Hi, Rowdy; Thanks for the invite. I approach this question from the perspective of trying to study and understand God's will as revealed in the Bible. That's not to say that there wouldn't be value in seeing your particular application of God's word, just that my focus (for now, at least) is on what the Bible teaches. As a believer, I've often been challenged with "contradictions" in the Bible. Every one that's been presented to me has been nonsense - passages taken out of context or misinterpreted, assuming that every act described in the Bible reflects God's will - that sort of foolishness. But this to me looks like a real contradiction - one passage that seems to conflict with many other passages. I realize that God is not double-minded about anything; I just can't figure out how to resolve it. And of course, this isn't just an intellectual exercise. My church reflects the unity/equality/freedom end of the scale by ordaining women as deacons, elders, and pastors. But maybe it is in error and should reflect the 1 Corinthians 14 end by not ordaining women to those offices. For now, I believe that my church is obedient to the principles taught in the New Testament. But I asked because it's still a question in my mind. Anyway, thanks for the dialog. Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones |
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7 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | Rowdy | 109154 | ||
Again, I have to say the Bible is very, very clear on this subject. For example: Both elders and deacons are to be husbands of one wife. In other scriptures women are commanded not to ursup the authority of the leaders of the church. The scripture about women approaching their husbands for questions has been cited previously. Over and over again, God's Word is very clear on this point. The church's relationship to Christ as head is compared to the marriage relationship between a man and woman. I hate to beat a dead horse but this matter boils down to a simple matter of whether or not we are obeying God or not. Peter and John asked that same question of their court officials in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago. Each man must answer that same question every day all of us get out of our beds in the morning. This day, when it comes down to a choice between the two, will I (all of us) obey the commands of God or men? Please don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating blind obedience to something that goes against the laws of nature. We must study the scriptures with an open mind and an open heart. When we approach God's Word with respect and a determination to obey, we have to be submissive to His pattern. That's why I think it's so important to study the OT. It informs us that God did set a pattern for almost everything but He wants us to grow up and see beyond our simple, blind obedience to His dictates. He wants us to trust Him enough to know that His patterns were put into His Word for our benefit. If we follow His patterns, our world works better, just like our automobiles work better when we follow the manual and install parts in accorance with their guidance. It is a simple matter of form following function. Generally, things (especially in God's world, heaven and His church) function better for the long term when we abide with God's Perfect Maintenance Manual for us as humans. I'd be interested in seeing a response from you and all others, addressing each of the points I have cited above. I would welcome comments or questions from anyone in your congregation. How can we justify outright disobedience to God Almighty and hope to meet Him in Judgement? Please advise. |
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8 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | stjones | 109160 | ||
Hi, Rowdy; I hate to quote myself, but I can't make my dilemma any clearer than this: If God's word teaches that we are one in Christ, that in Christ there is no male nor female, that we live under grace and not under the Law, then I want to be very careful about telling my sister in Christ that that those things don't apply to her as they do me because there's a fragment of the Law still in force that says I can talk and she can't. I'm not convinced it is obedient to the whole of God's word to silence a person because of gender when God's word clearly states that "in Christ", there is no gender (Galatians 3:28, Colossians 3:11 expresses a similar idea). We're not talking about marriage which is a relationship between two based on gender. We're talking about the relationship of one member of the body to another and to the body as a whole. Neither male nor female is the head because Christ is the head (Colossians 1:18). To be completely honest, these words sound like Saul the Pharisee: "They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says" (1 Corinthians 14:34). If there is another passage where Paul says that a believer under grace is still bound by the Law, I'd like someone to show it to me. My original question was how to harmonize this Saul-like passage with the rest of Paul's letters. Your response has been to "just do it". Sorry, but no. You can accuse me "outright disobedience" if you like. Perhaps it is "outright disobedience" to pick an isolated passage that replaces grace with the Law and use it to silence one's equals. Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones |
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9 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | Rowdy | 109169 | ||
Please believe I mean no malice or disrespect. Maybe I'm a bit harsh but I was just trying to make a point. I think there's room for discussion but I must emphasize that the scriptures I've seen so far haven't given any support to the idea that women are allowed equal standing in the church with men. I realize this may not be policitically correct for our time but the Bible rarely is, especially when taken in its total. Thus we have the straight and narrow road compared to the broad way for the bulk of the world. I would like to urge you to continue studying God's word. I do think we CAN definitely comply with all of God's Word. I've already expressed my perplexity with the passage in Hebrews but I don't think it nor any of the other scriptures mentioned mean for women to take up that same standing, equal to the men in the church. But as I've mentioned, the women are definitely allowed to make their thoughts and wishes known through proper channels. Just as in the military, court system or any other system put together by human beings, God and His children MUST follow His protocals. I'll try to wrap up this discussion, at least from my perspective with this. I think the NT overall is laced with an absolute bare minimum BUT ESSENTIAL restrictions. That's part of the Lord's desire I referred to earlier. He wants us to grow up and realize most of His guidance can be inferred from the general guidance He's given throughout the Bible. Basically, we are to follow the examples we're given in His Son and His official representatives, the Apostles. God bless in your continued efforts. My praryers are on your side. Still anxiously waiting for anyone else to respond. |
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10 | How to harmonize this passage | 1 Cor 14:34 | stjones | 109176 | ||
Hi, Rowdy; I think we're both trying to make our points - more accurately, I think we're both trying to explain the points we see made in Scripture. No malice assumed or intended. You said: "the scriptures I've seen so far haven't given any support to the idea that women are allowed equal standing in the church with men." To which I reply: "all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galations 3:27-28) You said: "Still anxiously waiting for anyone else to respond." To which I reply: "Amen, brother!" Peace and grace, Steve aka Indiana Jones who, sadly, now has to go to work.... |
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