Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209577 | ||
Greetings Steve! Just so that you know I am not alone in seeing Paul as describing himself as a Pharisee before coming to Christ, here is a repost of a quote from Anthony Hoekema. :-) _________________ Greetings All! Here is a quote from Anthony A. Hoekema, late professor emeritus of systematic theology at Calvin Theological Seminary. He is a reformed theologian, and these are his comments about Rom. 7:14-25: ****************************** Another basic point of difference I have is the interpretation of Romans 7:14-25. Walvoord thinks this passage describes the regenerate person's struggle with sin. he quotes from a 1962 article of mine, in which I supported this view. But I have since changed my mind. I now see this passage as a description, seen through the eyes of a regenerate person, of an unregenerate person (e.g., an unconverted Pharisaic Jew) struggling to fight sin through the law alone, apart from the strength of the Spirit I admit that this position is not the usual Reformed interpretation. I should add that the view of the Christian as a new person does not stand or fall with the exegesis of Romans 7:14-25 here defended. What is the Scriptural basis for this interpretation? First, Romans 7:14-25 reflects and elaborates on the condition pictured in verse 5: "When we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death." This verse obviously describes unregenerate persons, in contrast to the regenerate persons described in verses 4 and 6. Verse 13 reads, "In order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good." This passage describes the same type of person pictured in verse 5 (namely, an unregenerate person); not the parallels: sinful passions aroused by the law produced fruit for death (v. 5), and sin, through what was good (i.e., the law), produced death (v. 13). Verses 14 and 15, which begin the controversial passage, have three ‘fors’ in them (see the Greek text, ASV, NASB). By means of these ‘fors’ Paul ties in what follows with what he has just finished saying. The rest of chapter 7, therefore, elaborates on the condition of the unregenerate person described in verses 5 and 13. Second, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit or of his strength for overcoming sin in Romans 7:14-25, but chapter 8 has a least sixteen references to the Spirit. Third, the mood of frustration and defeat that permeates this section does not comport with the mood of victory in terms of which Paul usually describes the Christian life. The person pictured is still a captive of the law of sin (7:23), whereas the believer described in 6:17-18 is no longer a slave to sin. Finally, Romans 7:25 reads: “I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin” (RSV). The words “I of myself” are emphatic in the Greek. Paul is here describing a person who tries to “go it alone,” to keep God’s law in his or her own strength, rather than in the strength of the Spirit. I believe, therefore, that the biblical description of the normal Christian life is found, not in Romans 7:14-25, but in Romans 6 and 8. Source: Gundry, Stanley N. (Series Editor), “Five Views on Sanctification”, Zondervan Publishing House: Grand Rapids, MI, 1987, pp. 231-232. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | stjohn | 209585 | ||
Hi Tim; Though there may be some commentary from esteemed theologians that support this view. There also seems to be many more that do not. -- "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5). In addition, we have commands that we know we never keep, much less on a daily basis. For instance, who can claim to love God with all his heart, mind and soul every moment of every day? No one. Yet, that is the greatest commandment (Matthew 22:36-38). Failing to love God completely at all times is a daily sin for all Christians. We also have a verse that warns us of the deceitfulness of our old sinful nature, which in a sense is warning us of the potential, if not the likelihood, of daily sin. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). Even the apostle Paul was frustrated with his own battle against indwelling sin. "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23). This capacity to sin led him to cry in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24). Solomon knew full well that he and all men not only have the potential for sin, but that we all exercise that capacity routinely. As he stated in his prayer at the dedication of the temple, "If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not)" (1 Kings 8:46). And Solomon spoke of it again in the book of Ecclesiastes: "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Again, while these verses do not unequivocally indicate daily sin, they certainly warn us against the pride of saying at any moment that we have no sin.?"--http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-daily.html ------------------------------------------------------ Romans 7:15-25 "The intensely personal character of these verses and the use of present tenses indicate that this was Paul's owen experience as a believer."-- Ryrie Study Bible Expanded Edition NASB ------------------------------------------------------ 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? -- "It is a miserable thing to be yet in part subject to sin, which of its own nature makes us guilty of death: but we must cry to the Lord, who will by death itself at length make us conquerors, as we are already conquerors in Christ. Wearied with miserable and continual conflicts." 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I f myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. -- "He recovers himself, and shows us that he rests only in Christ. This is the true perfection of those that are born again, to confess that they are imperfect."--The Geneva Study Bible ------------------------------------------------------ Also: http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/gill/romans7.htm And: http://eword.gospelcom.net/comments/romans/mhc/romans7.htm The content of these web-sources that are held alongside of this are also in post 209566 so I wont post them again. Needless to say, they concur that the "Wretched Man" is synonymous with the Christian inner struggle with daily sin. And should give great comfort to those who are aware of this struggle. ------------------------------------------------------ 24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?--The apostle speaks of the "body" here with reference to "the law of sin" which he had said was "in his members," but merely as the instrument by which the sin of the heart finds vent in action, and as itself the seat of the lower appetites (see on Ro 6:6, and Ro 7:5); and he calls it "the body of this death," as feeling, at the moment when he wrote, the horrors of that death (Ro 6:21, and Ro 7:5) into which it dragged him down. But the language is not that of a sinner newly awakened to the sight of his lost state; it is the cry of a living but agonized believer, weighed down under a burden which is not himself, but which he longs to shake off from his renewed self. Nor does the question imply ignorance of the way of relief at the time referred to. It was designed only to prepare the way for that outburst of thankfulness for the divinely provided remedy which immediately follows. 25. I thank God--the Source. through Jesus Christ--the Channel of deliverance. So then--to sum up the whole matter. with the mind--the mind indeed.--Jamieson, Faussett, and Brown I guess Tim, we have come to a crossroad that we part in agreement but, share many truths that we can be glad of. And agree to disagree, agreeably. :-) God bless John |
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3 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209593 | ||
Greetings John! Certainly, we can agree to disagree, agreeably. :-) Allow me to note a couple of things though about your post. 1) Support for a belief should always be weighed, not counted. :-) 2) While all of your quotes support the belief that the 'wretched man', not one of them deals with the contradictions with Romans 6 and 8. This was the very reason that Anthony Hoekema gave for his change of position. Thank you for sharing my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | stjohn | 209598 | ||
Dear Tim, Please read the teachings from the web-link that brother Steve gave you at DisiringGod.org http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/57_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_1/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/58_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_2/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/59_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_3/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/60_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_4/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/62_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_6/ Or you can download them and listen. This helps me an awful lot when I'm just too busy doing other things, and cant sit down to read. Tim, It is my sincere hope and prayer that you read it, in prayer, and for God to enlighten you my friend. John Piper does a splendid, and amazing job of reconciling the contradictions. I only wish that Anthony Hoekema had read this before he changed his mind! :-) I am reading it now, Tim, I'm about half way through, and find it to be a very edifying and inspiring gift from one of the most Spirit filled men I know that is still on this side of the grass! Good reading my friend and may God bless you in your ministry and your studies. Tim, I'd like to thank you as well for the blessing this morning. The service went well, thank you! There was much healing in a family that has suffered far too much pain and turmoil over the years. But I overheard some of them even reconciling over some old and very bitter disputes. Praise God! God bless John |
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5 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209603 | ||
Greetings John! It is great to hear that the service went well. The grace of God can move powerfully in the lives of those going through grief. As for Piper's messages, I just finished them. You can check out my comments in my posts to Steve, if you would like. There was much that I could agree with him on, but there were (of course) a few things that I could not agree with him on. Well, I need to get some sleep. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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