Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209769 | ||
Greetings Steve! Thanks for the response my friend! If I may speak for you for a moment, you have trouble with the 'contradiction' that a lost person would love the Law of God with his mind, while I have trouble with the contradiction that we are no longer 'slaves to sin' yet the wretched man is described as a 'slave to sin'. In my opinion, your contradiction is not a direct contradiction. Your understanding of how a lost person is (based upon the Scriptures) contradicts that Rom. 7:14-25 could be describing a lost person. However, there is no verse which actually says, "A lost person cannot love the Law of God with his mind". :-) Yet, the contradiction that I am complaining about is a direct 1 to 1 correlation. If the 'wretched man' is a slave to sin (and a Christian), then Rom. 6 is in error. We may never agree on this issue, but it is a fun study. I have been really digging into the 'sarx' in Paul's writings. There are 5 pages of verses in which Paul uses the word 'sarx'. I am trying to pin down the exact relationship between a believer and the 'sarx'. I hope to post my study results eventually. Have a great week my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209862 | ||
Brother Tim, In regards to you speaking for me, well, I guess I don't mind so much brother as long as it's accurate :-) But in this case it's not an accurate assessment so I must correct what you said. It appears all my ramblings are not properly conveying my thoughts. The contradiction is that we are to believe for example the lost person joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man (v22). The Scriptures say the lost person is dead in his trespasses and sins indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind , and by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1, 3). This dear brother does not reflect one who joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man. We are not talking about a simple matter of the mind, but the nature of the man. Where I disagree with your position is where you say there "is a direct 1 to 1 correlation". Look at verse 14 again. Paul does not say that he is NOW sold into sin. He says "I am OF flesh, sold into bondage to sin". The flesh is sold into bondage to sin. This is a statement of fact and it applies to all of us. Those who are lost or nothing but sinful flesh. Only in Him do we have freedom. The freedom as I pointed out and understand it is we are justified in Him, no longer condemned. The freedom is not that the flesh is no longer sinful. This is clear from Romans 6:6-7, 6:12-13a, and Romans 8:5-8. It is only once Christ is in us the spirit lives (Romans 8:10). I have a question for you my brother. In verse 24 Paul says "Wretched man that I am!..." Tell me, considering what Scripture teaches us about the lost as I have pointed out in previous post in this thread and again above regarding Ephesians 2:1 and 2:3, where do we find the lost person considering themselves wretched? Granted, they are indeed wretched, but given Scripture, how are we to understand that one described as they are has such a view of themselves as so? That is how I understand it. It is much much more than a matter of the mind as you attributed to my position. Your brother in Christ, Steve |
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3 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209880 | ||
Greetings Steve! Thanks for the response my friend! Allow me to address your question to me first. 1) Wretched man - I believe that I had noted in another post (of course I am getting older, so I may not have) that I view the wretched man not as a description an unregenerate person would give of himself, but of a mature Christian's (Paul) descriptive of his past life as a Pharisee. It is not how an unregenerate person would describe himself. I have been doing a lot of reading on this topic over the last week. It is interesting to note that they early church fathers viewed Rom. 7:14-25 as a description of the unregenerate man until the time of Augustine. In Augustine's early writings, he too viewed Rom. 7:14-25 as a description of unregenerate man. However, in his latter writings, he changed his view - and his view has been the most popular one since that time. 2) Now, let's look at your understanding that Paul is saying the 'flesh' is sold into sin, not him. Here is the literal translation of Rom. 7:14: "We know for that the law spiritual is, I but fleshly am sold into slavery (perfect, passive, participle) unto the sin." 'Flesh' here is an adjective describing the 'I' of the passage, and thus, cannot be the subject of the verb 'sold into sin'. Thus, it is 'I' who is 'sold into slavery to sin'. My original concern still applies that this statement, if describing a regenerate person, is a direct contradiction to Rom. 6 which tells us that we are not longer slaves to sin. By the way, the perfect tense indicates a past action with ongoing present results. This has been an interesting study. I am currently involved in looking at all of Paul's uses of 'sarx'. I am presently in Gal. 5:17. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209920 | ||
Greetings Tim, On your point 1 I still find disagreement because of the passage in Philippians. This passage is actually Paul "a mature Christian", a regenerate person describing himself when he was a Pharisee. The very thing you are saying about Romans 7:14-25. Who are the "early church fathers" you are referring to? By the way, I have already mentioned I didn't even know this passage was viewed differently and my understanding doesn't come from someone else's view. I say that just to make the point that I have not adopted the view of others but rather it is my own understanding of Scripture. So, if I am wrong in my understanding it is not due to others but rather my own inabilities to understand :-( Your point 2 still does not validate the passage as you have described it (my opinion :-) When Paul or you or me or anyone was sold into the bondage of sin, we were indeed the "I", we were nothing but "fleshly". It is a statement of fact so to speak. If it were describing his current state, then the following verses would have to reflect that truth i.e. that he, the "I" is still in bondage to sin wouldn't it? Hopefully from that you can follow my way of thinking on this :-) So, if you would, give the same treatment to Romans 7:17 as you did Romans 7:14 Romans 7:17 Now then no more I that do it, but that dwelleth in me. sin By the way, what resource are you using for the literal translation you presented? Thanks brother! Your bother in Christ, Steve |
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5 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209922 | ||
Greetings Steve! 1) Early Church Fathers: I am still trying to track down the exact quotes. Several sources have mentioned that the traditional view, until later Augustine, was the unregenerate man. I have found one quote, but I am still trying to find the rest. I'll try to get you a list when I find them. 2) Your view: I don't think I have said anything about where you got your view my friend. You have been great at responding to me with Scripture. We may not agree, but at least you are defending your position with Scripture. :-) 3) Rom. 7:17 - "now and no longer I working it but the dwelling in me sin." (Literal translation). If this describes a Christian's experience, then sin is victorious. 4) Translation: My own translation. I've got to run! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209931 | ||
Greetings Tim, If sin were victorious as you say, then how in this verse does the "I" no longer have guilt of being the one doing the sin? What could possibly be meant by "now and no longer I" if this is talking about an unregenerate person? When you have time, please explain why/how you see this as sin being victorious. I'm not following that. By the way, I was not accusing you of saying I had gotten my view from anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Thanks Tim! Your bother in Christ, Steve |
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