Results 1 - 11 of 11
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209379 | ||
Brother Tim, It seems to be a stretch to say this was Paul speaking of himself as a Pharisee so I hope you don't mind me breaking in your study :-). So in an attempt to reconcile, let me reverse the question. Considering verses 21-23, 25 how does one reconcile the passage to be speaking of a none believer? Romans 7:21-23 and 25 (NASB) 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Where in Scripture do we see it taught that the natural man "wants to do good” or “joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” or struggles with a “different law in the members of" the "body” and “the law of” the mind, or with the “mind” serve the “law of God” but with the “flesh the law of sin”? Is it not true that the mind set on the flesh does not submit itself to the laws of God and is not even able to do so (Romans 8:7)? The desires of the natural man or not the things of God but of the flesh (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8, Galatians 5:16-25). And what of Romans 3:10-12? Considering verse 17. If he indeed is describing himself as when he was a Pharisee, how is it as a Pharisee, it is no longer him doing it but sin in him? As a Pharisee, when was he set free from the bondage of sin? And one last point. How do we reconcile verse 25. Again, if Paul is describing himself as a Pharisee, how do we reconcile that he thanks God through Jesus Christ our Lord and yet concludes that on the one hand he serves the law of God with his mind but on the other with his flesh the law of sin? A Pharisee thanking God through Jesus Christ our Lord??? Although a Christian has been set free from sin, they can indeed be fleshly (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Also, Romans 6:12-13 seem to clearly indicate that although the believer is no longer a slave to sin, sin is certainly still a distinct possibility in the life of a believer. Romans 6:12-13 (NASB) 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. What am I missing? Your brother in Christ, Steve |
||||||
2 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209577 | ||
Greetings Steve! Just so that you know I am not alone in seeing Paul as describing himself as a Pharisee before coming to Christ, here is a repost of a quote from Anthony Hoekema. :-) _________________ Greetings All! Here is a quote from Anthony A. Hoekema, late professor emeritus of systematic theology at Calvin Theological Seminary. He is a reformed theologian, and these are his comments about Rom. 7:14-25: ****************************** Another basic point of difference I have is the interpretation of Romans 7:14-25. Walvoord thinks this passage describes the regenerate person's struggle with sin. he quotes from a 1962 article of mine, in which I supported this view. But I have since changed my mind. I now see this passage as a description, seen through the eyes of a regenerate person, of an unregenerate person (e.g., an unconverted Pharisaic Jew) struggling to fight sin through the law alone, apart from the strength of the Spirit I admit that this position is not the usual Reformed interpretation. I should add that the view of the Christian as a new person does not stand or fall with the exegesis of Romans 7:14-25 here defended. What is the Scriptural basis for this interpretation? First, Romans 7:14-25 reflects and elaborates on the condition pictured in verse 5: "When we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death." This verse obviously describes unregenerate persons, in contrast to the regenerate persons described in verses 4 and 6. Verse 13 reads, "In order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good." This passage describes the same type of person pictured in verse 5 (namely, an unregenerate person); not the parallels: sinful passions aroused by the law produced fruit for death (v. 5), and sin, through what was good (i.e., the law), produced death (v. 13). Verses 14 and 15, which begin the controversial passage, have three ‘fors’ in them (see the Greek text, ASV, NASB). By means of these ‘fors’ Paul ties in what follows with what he has just finished saying. The rest of chapter 7, therefore, elaborates on the condition of the unregenerate person described in verses 5 and 13. Second, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit or of his strength for overcoming sin in Romans 7:14-25, but chapter 8 has a least sixteen references to the Spirit. Third, the mood of frustration and defeat that permeates this section does not comport with the mood of victory in terms of which Paul usually describes the Christian life. The person pictured is still a captive of the law of sin (7:23), whereas the believer described in 6:17-18 is no longer a slave to sin. Finally, Romans 7:25 reads: “I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin” (RSV). The words “I of myself” are emphatic in the Greek. Paul is here describing a person who tries to “go it alone,” to keep God’s law in his or her own strength, rather than in the strength of the Spirit. I believe, therefore, that the biblical description of the normal Christian life is found, not in Romans 7:14-25, but in Romans 6 and 8. Source: Gundry, Stanley N. (Series Editor), “Five Views on Sanctification”, Zondervan Publishing House: Grand Rapids, MI, 1987, pp. 231-232. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
3 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209582 | ||
Brother Tim, Let me first say when I read your first post on this I had no idea there was even a debate on the passage of Scripture. I found myself scratching my head at your teaching. So after responding the first time or two and waiting to see your follow on post I started doing a little research to try and understand what the debate/difference in views on the passage was. Like I said, it was news to me?!?!?! Anyway, it has been an interesting study/look at the whole thing. Not that I covered all that probably could be found on the subject written by others but enough to see the different arguments. Looking at what Hoekema said let me just quickly say as I have already pointed out, Paul himself seems to have a different view of himself as a Pharisee than Hoekema does (Philippians 3:6). No indication of a struggle with sin! Sounds like to me Paul had no struggle with his sin nature until he found out he had one. And as I pointed out in the first post, Scripture tells a different story of the lost person (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8, Galatians 5:16-25, etc...). Thank you all the same for the post. I've been taking the time to look through all of this. Let me share with you something in return. As I was searching the net for material on this passage of Scripture I found this which does an excellent job on the text / subject. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/57_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_1/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/58_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_2/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/59_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_3/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/60_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_4/ http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/126_Indwelling_Sin/62_Who_is_This_Divided_Man_Part_6/ Galatians 5:16-17 (NASB) 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. God bless my Brother, Steve |
||||||
4 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209596 | ||
Greetings Steve! The great thing about being exposed to different views is that it does make us search out Scripture. You are to be commended for your study my friend, whether we ever agree on this issue or not. :-) Now, allow me to comment upon some specifics. 1) Phil. 3:6: My understanding of this verse is that Paul is speaking of his outward observance of the Law. He kept the rules, but I don't get the impression that he found himself sinless. In Rom. 7:14-25, I believe Paul is describing himself, not as he would have when he was a pharisee, but as he would describe his past life after coming to Christ. 2) Concerning the desires of the lost, I don't see where the text you cite support the notion that no one who is lost would try to follow God's Law. If so, there would be no Judaism at all. :-) The whole history of Judaism is lost people trying to live in accordance with God's Law, but being unable to do so because of their sin nature. 3) As Hoekema pointed out, my primary concern is that a believer cannot be a 'slave to sin' at the same time as he is described as 'no longer a slave to sin'. This is a direct contradiction. I have yet to see anyone confront this issue. Thanks for the links my friend, I will check them out. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
5 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209744 | ||
Brother Tim, To a Pharisee, was there understanding of righteousness not in the "observance of the Law"? Yes, indeed it was and when Paul says he was found blameless in regards to the righteousness that is in the Law he is stating his view of his past life as a Pharisee. He goes on to say he counts it all as loss that he may be found in Christ, not having a righteousness of his own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (Philippians 3:8-9). I'm not sure how we could find his meaning of not being blameless in regards to the righteousness that is in the Law anything but him viewing himself sinless at the time he was a Pharisee. By the way, it is not my notion but rather Scripture that explains the state of the lost. It is clear that the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14). It is clear that the flesh does not and cannot submit itself to the laws of God (Romans 8:7). It is clear from the word that all are under sin there are none righteous, none understand, none seeks for God, all have turned aside, all have become useless, none does good (Romans 3:10-12). I don't think we can in good conscience ignore that when considering the passage of scripture in question. The Judaism argument side steps the issue altogether. I didn't present the argument as you stated it. Never the less, their legalistic approach to righteousness does indeed reflect what the scriptures teach in regards to the lost. On your third point I think I have been trying to address that. I personally do not see the passage as you have described it. The contradiction as I see it comes when trying to view the passage as describing a lost person. This is why I pointed to what the word teaches us about the lost person. In context of the whole I personally fail to see how the passage in question can ever relate to one who is lost. The greater contradiction as I see it is to claim the things Paul says is that of a non-believer. There the contradictions to overcome becomes greater then my simple mind could ever reason given the clear teaching in Scripture of the fallen man. Paul makes a crucial point in verses 17 and 18. SO NOW, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (v17) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh... (v18). Yet as a Pharisee, blameless. Go figure! :-) The Law was spiritual, not Paul, he like we were sold into bondage to sin. It is not that we are not capable of sinning any longer. But we have been justified, declared righteous in Christ! No longer condemned (Romans 6:6-7, 8:1). This is our freedom from sin! Our obligation is no longer to the flesh (Romans 8:12) but the Spirit! Putting to death the deeds of the body. The corruption of the flesh is ever present (Romans 8:5-8) and Paul clearly warns of our obligation to live according to the Spirit and not the flesh (Romans 8:13). Sorry for the long delay in responding. It was a busy weekend and typical Monday... Your brother in Christ, Steve |
||||||
6 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209769 | ||
Greetings Steve! Thanks for the response my friend! If I may speak for you for a moment, you have trouble with the 'contradiction' that a lost person would love the Law of God with his mind, while I have trouble with the contradiction that we are no longer 'slaves to sin' yet the wretched man is described as a 'slave to sin'. In my opinion, your contradiction is not a direct contradiction. Your understanding of how a lost person is (based upon the Scriptures) contradicts that Rom. 7:14-25 could be describing a lost person. However, there is no verse which actually says, "A lost person cannot love the Law of God with his mind". :-) Yet, the contradiction that I am complaining about is a direct 1 to 1 correlation. If the 'wretched man' is a slave to sin (and a Christian), then Rom. 6 is in error. We may never agree on this issue, but it is a fun study. I have been really digging into the 'sarx' in Paul's writings. There are 5 pages of verses in which Paul uses the word 'sarx'. I am trying to pin down the exact relationship between a believer and the 'sarx'. I hope to post my study results eventually. Have a great week my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
7 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209862 | ||
Brother Tim, In regards to you speaking for me, well, I guess I don't mind so much brother as long as it's accurate :-) But in this case it's not an accurate assessment so I must correct what you said. It appears all my ramblings are not properly conveying my thoughts. The contradiction is that we are to believe for example the lost person joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man (v22). The Scriptures say the lost person is dead in his trespasses and sins indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind , and by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1, 3). This dear brother does not reflect one who joyfully concurs with the law of God in the inner man. We are not talking about a simple matter of the mind, but the nature of the man. Where I disagree with your position is where you say there "is a direct 1 to 1 correlation". Look at verse 14 again. Paul does not say that he is NOW sold into sin. He says "I am OF flesh, sold into bondage to sin". The flesh is sold into bondage to sin. This is a statement of fact and it applies to all of us. Those who are lost or nothing but sinful flesh. Only in Him do we have freedom. The freedom as I pointed out and understand it is we are justified in Him, no longer condemned. The freedom is not that the flesh is no longer sinful. This is clear from Romans 6:6-7, 6:12-13a, and Romans 8:5-8. It is only once Christ is in us the spirit lives (Romans 8:10). I have a question for you my brother. In verse 24 Paul says "Wretched man that I am!..." Tell me, considering what Scripture teaches us about the lost as I have pointed out in previous post in this thread and again above regarding Ephesians 2:1 and 2:3, where do we find the lost person considering themselves wretched? Granted, they are indeed wretched, but given Scripture, how are we to understand that one described as they are has such a view of themselves as so? That is how I understand it. It is much much more than a matter of the mind as you attributed to my position. Your brother in Christ, Steve |
||||||
8 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209880 | ||
Greetings Steve! Thanks for the response my friend! Allow me to address your question to me first. 1) Wretched man - I believe that I had noted in another post (of course I am getting older, so I may not have) that I view the wretched man not as a description an unregenerate person would give of himself, but of a mature Christian's (Paul) descriptive of his past life as a Pharisee. It is not how an unregenerate person would describe himself. I have been doing a lot of reading on this topic over the last week. It is interesting to note that they early church fathers viewed Rom. 7:14-25 as a description of the unregenerate man until the time of Augustine. In Augustine's early writings, he too viewed Rom. 7:14-25 as a description of unregenerate man. However, in his latter writings, he changed his view - and his view has been the most popular one since that time. 2) Now, let's look at your understanding that Paul is saying the 'flesh' is sold into sin, not him. Here is the literal translation of Rom. 7:14: "We know for that the law spiritual is, I but fleshly am sold into slavery (perfect, passive, participle) unto the sin." 'Flesh' here is an adjective describing the 'I' of the passage, and thus, cannot be the subject of the verb 'sold into sin'. Thus, it is 'I' who is 'sold into slavery to sin'. My original concern still applies that this statement, if describing a regenerate person, is a direct contradiction to Rom. 6 which tells us that we are not longer slaves to sin. By the way, the perfect tense indicates a past action with ongoing present results. This has been an interesting study. I am currently involved in looking at all of Paul's uses of 'sarx'. I am presently in Gal. 5:17. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
9 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209920 | ||
Greetings Tim, On your point 1 I still find disagreement because of the passage in Philippians. This passage is actually Paul "a mature Christian", a regenerate person describing himself when he was a Pharisee. The very thing you are saying about Romans 7:14-25. Who are the "early church fathers" you are referring to? By the way, I have already mentioned I didn't even know this passage was viewed differently and my understanding doesn't come from someone else's view. I say that just to make the point that I have not adopted the view of others but rather it is my own understanding of Scripture. So, if I am wrong in my understanding it is not due to others but rather my own inabilities to understand :-( Your point 2 still does not validate the passage as you have described it (my opinion :-) When Paul or you or me or anyone was sold into the bondage of sin, we were indeed the "I", we were nothing but "fleshly". It is a statement of fact so to speak. If it were describing his current state, then the following verses would have to reflect that truth i.e. that he, the "I" is still in bondage to sin wouldn't it? Hopefully from that you can follow my way of thinking on this :-) So, if you would, give the same treatment to Romans 7:17 as you did Romans 7:14 Romans 7:17 Now then no more I that do it, but that dwelleth in me. sin By the way, what resource are you using for the literal translation you presented? Thanks brother! Your bother in Christ, Steve |
||||||
10 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209922 | ||
Greetings Steve! 1) Early Church Fathers: I am still trying to track down the exact quotes. Several sources have mentioned that the traditional view, until later Augustine, was the unregenerate man. I have found one quote, but I am still trying to find the rest. I'll try to get you a list when I find them. 2) Your view: I don't think I have said anything about where you got your view my friend. You have been great at responding to me with Scripture. We may not agree, but at least you are defending your position with Scripture. :-) 3) Rom. 7:17 - "now and no longer I working it but the dwelling in me sin." (Literal translation). If this describes a Christian's experience, then sin is victorious. 4) Translation: My own translation. I've got to run! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
||||||
11 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209931 | ||
Greetings Tim, If sin were victorious as you say, then how in this verse does the "I" no longer have guilt of being the one doing the sin? What could possibly be meant by "now and no longer I" if this is talking about an unregenerate person? When you have time, please explain why/how you see this as sin being victorious. I'm not following that. By the way, I was not accusing you of saying I had gotten my view from anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Thanks Tim! Your bother in Christ, Steve |
||||||