Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209355 | ||
Greetings All I enjoy doing exegetical studies, so I thought I would post one on the 'wretched man' of Romans 7:24. The identity of this 'wretched man' is crucial to a proper understanding of the relationship between sin and a believer. Even though chapters 6 and 8 clearly state that believers are no longer slaves to sin and are called to (and capable of) living holy lives, many persist in believing that Romans 7:14-25 not only describe the Christian experience, but is the best that one can hope for in this life. Let's look at the text to see if this interpretation holds water! 1) Who is the 'I' of this passage? The simplest approach is that the 'I' refers to Paul himself. There is some support, both in Scripture and in ancient texts for a universal 'I', but it seems that Paul is clearly referring to himself in this passage. As we shall see though, what can be said of him, can also be said of us all. However, which 'I' is Paul describing? Is he describing himself as a Christian or is he describing himself prior to his salvation? There are several reasons why Paul cannot be describing himself as a Christian. a) The description of himself in Romans 7:14-25 directly contradicts his description of the Christian life in relation to sin in both chapter 6 and 8. How can a Christian be described as a 'slave to sin' (Rom. 7:14) when Paul himself just said in Rom. 6:16 that we 'used to be slaves to sin' and that we have been 'set free from sin' (6:18)? How can it be said of a Christians in Rom. 7:25 that we are 'a slave to the law of sin' when in Rom. 8:1 Paul says that we have been 'set me free from the law of sin and death' and in 8:9 that we are not 'controlled not by the sinful nature'? These are issues that cannot be ignored! If Paul is describing the normative Christian experience in relation to sin in Rom. 7:14-25, he directly contradicts everything he also says in Romans 6 and 8. b) Secondly, Paul cannot be describing himself as a Christian, because Rom. 7:14-25 describes someone who is 'incapable of not sinning'. This is a point that is usually ignored when the identity of the wretched man is discussed. Many have argued that Paul is describing himself from the perspective of years of maturity, having realized over time how far short he falls from God's holiness. I would certainly concede that as we grow in Christ, we have a greater understanding and apprehension of God's holiness and our sinfulness. However, Paul does not say in this passage that he sometimes fails God. He says that he always does what he does not want to do and never does what he wants to do (v. 18-20). Can it really be said of a Christian's life that we never do what we want to do? Can it be said that we always do what we don't want to do? 3) Conclusion: I will have to post other parts to this study, but allow me to close with this point. Paul is not describing himself as a Christian, but as a Pharisee. Before he came to Christ, he wanted to obey God's Law but COULD NOT! Before he came to Christ, he was a 'slave to sin'. Before he came to Christ, he as a wretched man, but now... We cannot stop at Romans 7:25! We must continue on to Romans 8:1 where Paul describes the present reality for him as a believer. I will post on this topic again and address the 'but now...' of Romans 8 in the near future. For now though, I offer this challenge. If Paul is describing the Christian experience in Rom. 7:14-25, please demonstrate from the text how one can be a 'slave to sin' (ch. 7) and 'not a slave to sin' (ch. 6) at the same time? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209379 | ||
Brother Tim, It seems to be a stretch to say this was Paul speaking of himself as a Pharisee so I hope you don't mind me breaking in your study :-). So in an attempt to reconcile, let me reverse the question. Considering verses 21-23, 25 how does one reconcile the passage to be speaking of a none believer? Romans 7:21-23 and 25 (NASB) 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Where in Scripture do we see it taught that the natural man "wants to do good” or “joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man” or struggles with a “different law in the members of" the "body” and “the law of” the mind, or with the “mind” serve the “law of God” but with the “flesh the law of sin”? Is it not true that the mind set on the flesh does not submit itself to the laws of God and is not even able to do so (Romans 8:7)? The desires of the natural man or not the things of God but of the flesh (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8, Galatians 5:16-25). And what of Romans 3:10-12? Considering verse 17. If he indeed is describing himself as when he was a Pharisee, how is it as a Pharisee, it is no longer him doing it but sin in him? As a Pharisee, when was he set free from the bondage of sin? And one last point. How do we reconcile verse 25. Again, if Paul is describing himself as a Pharisee, how do we reconcile that he thanks God through Jesus Christ our Lord and yet concludes that on the one hand he serves the law of God with his mind but on the other with his flesh the law of sin? A Pharisee thanking God through Jesus Christ our Lord??? Although a Christian has been set free from sin, they can indeed be fleshly (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Also, Romans 6:12-13 seem to clearly indicate that although the believer is no longer a slave to sin, sin is certainly still a distinct possibility in the life of a believer. Romans 6:12-13 (NASB) 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. What am I missing? Your brother in Christ, Steve |
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3 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | Morant61 | 209384 | ||
Greetings Steve! I'm not sure that I made my point clearly enough my friend! I was not saying that as an unbeliever he was ABLE to obey the Law. He wanted to, but could not because of sin. We know that the Pharisees considered themselves 'sons of the Law', so even though they were not Christians, they wanted to obey the Law and tried to do so. In many cases, even making the Law stricter than it actually was. As for v. 25, I see it connected to 8:1. He is preparing to explain the 'but now...' of chapter 8. V. 25 is an expression of praise that God has done something about the sin that made him the 'wretched man' that he was. I certainly agree with you that sin is still a possibilty for a believer. Chapter six warns us against yielding to it and making ourselves slaves to it again. However, the 'wretched man' of chapter 7 is specifically said to be a 'slave to sin' while chapter 6 says that we are no longer slaves to sin. I've got to get ready for work my friend. I hope this answered your questions, if not, let me know. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Who is the Wretched Man? | Rom 7:24 | humbledbyhisgrace | 209444 | ||
Brother Tim, I'm not aware of scripture that teaches Saul the Pharisee tried to obey the Law or wanted to obey the Law but didn't or couldn't because of sin. Is there Scripture reference that speaks to this struggle? We do have his view of himself regarding his righteousness in the Law as a Pharisee. Philippians 3:6 (NASB) "... as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." As a Pharisee he viewed himself blameless in regards to the Law. Where was the struggle we find in Romans 7:14-25? I'm not seeing it brother! Your brother in Christ, Steve |
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