Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33265 | ||
Let's start with this Scripture: John 15 1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. This verse says it is impossible to bear fruit unless we are "in Christ". The branches that are pruned are ones that bear no fruit. Thus they represent those who are not in Christ (ie "those who fell" in the Romans 11 verse). Continuing the thought, how about Matthew 13... 18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." These verses seem to say that one can hear God's Word and understand it and have faith and then lose it. And then we have John 10... 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. This verse seems to say that those who are saved cannot be snatched from God's hand. The juxtaposition of these two concepts tells us this, in my humble opinion: That those who are saved will bear fruit, and that those who are saved cannot be taken by Satan. Further, those who are not saved will not bear fruit, and those who are not saved will fall to Satan. Finally, the John 15 verse tells us that there is a process to our salvation that includes hearing God's Word, remaining in God's Word (in thought, heart and action), and producing fruit as a result. This is not to say that salvation is the result of God plus us... rather, it is God in us that brings salvation. I think we can proceed down the path toward God, and then fall away. If we truly reach the point of "God in us" I think Jesus protects us, as the only shepherd can. This is a tough question, as one could also debate the correlative issue... "free will" vs "the elect" ... did we choose God or did He choose us? In Him Curt |
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2 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | zach† | 33936 | ||
Curt: Carefully Re-read John 15:2 and you will see that it says "He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit" But nevertheless even though they were "cut off," they were still said to be "in him" That part of this text is over-looked by most. In Christ zach |
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3 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 34178 | ||
Where does it say in John 15 that they are still in Him? It says that some are pruned, and some are cut off. The pruned ones stay in Him, and bear fruit. The cut off ones disappear from the text. Thoughts? Curt |
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4 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | zach† | 34296 | ||
Curt; I never said they "are still in him" The text says that there are some that are "cut off" who were a one time "in him" No branch can be cut off that has not been previously attached. Look at John 15:2 again John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARETH NOT FRUIT HE TAKETH AWAY: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. In Christ zach† |
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5 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 34307 | ||
Hi Zach Sorry... I misunderstood you. In Romans 11, Paul is talking to gentiles about the covenant with the Jewish people. Thus, one would think he is talking about national Israel being cut off and the gentiles being grafted in. John 15 is less clear to me, but seems similar. Is Jesus condemning the Jews (as a group) for their unbelief? I think so, but with the caveat that this is given as a warning to all people. The question is... does the warning apply to only people groups, or also to individual salvation. I tend to believe the former. I base this on Paul's text, which is clearly speaking of people groups. I also think the metaphor of a tree with branches is more likely representative of people groups than individuals. In John 15, Jesus is laying out large principles about God, the Kingdom, and those who would be followers of Him. It is difficult to discern whether He means individuals or groups, or perhaps even both. Maybe verse 16 gives us a clue: 16 "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name." Were the ones who did not bear fruit not chosen? :-) Blessings Cur† |
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6 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | zach† | 34320 | ||
Cur†; to answer your question: "The question is... does the warning apply to only people groups, or also to individual salvation." The following scripture initially comes to mind. Gal. 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. So from that text, I think is possible to say that leaven (which usually refers to sin) can begin in an individual and then spread corperately, through the body. But more importantly in John 15:2 which reads: John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. branch in this verse is treated as being singular. The termnology used for branch in this verse is "it' not they or them, etc. One last thought I have concerns some text in Rev. concerning the 7 churches of Asia. Rev. 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. In the church of Sardis their were only a FEW which had not been defiled and had soiled their garments. Few can mean a remnant I believe. So although not all in Sardis were defiled, the majority were. In Christ zach† |
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7 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 34326 | ||
Zach Just so I am clear... are you saying that this reading means one can be saved and then lose salvation individually? If so, how do you view the following: Matthew 10 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. John 10 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. Blessings Cur† |
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8 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | zach† | 34334 | ||
Cur†; Matthew 10 is Jesus instructions to his disciples to prepare them. Mt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Mt 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. Jesus was telling his disciples about persecution, not whether they would or would not lose salvation. This text does not deal with whether or not salvation can be lost. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the (physical body, not spiritual) body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. This text In the next text you posted from John; John 10 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. Didn't Jesus say that no man can pluck us out of His hand? Yes He did. And in the preceding verse Jesus indentified those who are held securely in His hand. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me;The ones who cannot be plucked out of Christ's hand are the sheep who hear His voice and follow Him. They are obedient to His teaching. if ye turn away, and forsake my ... commandments, ... Then will I pluck them up ... and ... cast (them) out of my sight (2 Chr. 7:19-20) The protection is from enemies without who seek to carry off the sheep, but not from unfaithfulness of the sheep who might choose not to follow any longer. This safety is only from forces outside the believer and God Himself. A backslider removes himself from the promises of safety and security. He is not removed against his own will. John 10:29 is a great promise that no man can pluck believers out of their Father's hand. That is what it teaches. It does not teach that you cannot, as a believer, walk out of His hands. It simply teaches that man cannot take you out of God's hands, but it does not talk about your own ability to choose to leave His hands. In Christ zach† |
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