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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Robert Nicholson | 33401 | ||
Brother Curt: I am not surprised that you are Presbyterian. I have considered Calvinism and Arminism against the scriptures and find myself somewhat in the middle. In reponse to your questions: "Outside of God's grace, is there anyone worthy of salvation? (I assume you agree the answer is "no") " (I agree) "So God, in His infinite justice could opt to save no one and still be just. (agree or disagree?)" In his eternal purposes I agree. However, he will not go back on his word now. It is only out of God's love and mercy that He saves anyone. (agree/disagree?) ( Amen!) "He could choose to save some and not others? (yes/no?) This would be just?" (yes he is sovereign) "Does the parable in Matthew 20:1-15 address this?" ( certainly in the sense that the householder was sovereign in dispensing of his own wealth." "What are the implications of this Scripture in terms of the "doctrine of election"? " We could certainly apply this scripture to election in the sense that we cannot question the grace of God. Are all elect or just some... are all chosen or just some? Are all predestined... etc? ( I believe that all who are in Christ are elect of God and are predestined to the adoption of children) The question here is "Are there some people who are not choosen because they choose not to listen to the Spirit of God? "Does God choose, then we choose? Or does God just choose?" I believe that God speaks to us by his spirit and reveals to us our need of Christ. Our choice is to simply rest upon what the Holy Spirit reveals to us about the sacrifice of Christ. In 1 Cor. 1 Paul speaks the method God has chosen to reach lost sinners "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." In other words we preach the gospel to all and allow the Spirit of God to work with individuals. In the same chapter Paul speaks of election and who is chosen "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:26-29 I think that based upon the sciptures above that Christ came to call lost sinners. Proud, self-righeous need not apply. Curt: I understand the theory of 5 point Calvinism. I have difficulty reconciling this theory with free choice. Your second last paragraph I would agree with to a degree. However, I also believe that sinners can reject Christ. If we believe that it is God who gives us our response, than we would be considered robots. Even sinners who in their life God used to bring about his purposes made a choice to harden their hearts against him before he finally hardened their hearts forever. Examples: Esau and Pharaoh. God is not unrighteous. The commission of our saviour in Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." is still valid today. Even a Calvinist cannot pick out those who are chosen and those who are not. I have a question: If each person who is and will be saved is absolutely chosen by name, why did the apostles in their time and people in these times,go to such lengths to spread the gospel to the "whosoever will"? Why is the last invitation in the Bible in Rev. to the whosoever? Another thing I noticed. Is that God tends to save people who are related to people who know Christ. Yet I believe that our salvation is very personal and is not part of family relationships. "I wonder what he saw in me to suffer such deep agony?" I will stop for now God bless you Robert |
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2 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33406 | ||
I agree with most of what you have said. Let me respond to a couple... (and please understand that I don't necessarily hold all of these as personal beliefs, but I am postulating for the sake of debate): You: "The commission of our saviour in Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." is still valid today. Even a Calvinist cannot pick out those who are chosen and those who are not." Me: I agree that God has invited us to be part of His purposes. This alone does not deny that the people we encounter may be part of the "elect". You are right, we can't pick out the elect, thus we are called to go to the ends of the earth spreading the Gospel. But this doesn't mean that God doesn't have them picked out. You: "I understand the theory of 5 point Calvinism. I have difficulty reconciling this theory with free choice." Me: While free choice seems right to us, I can find many more Scriptures regarding "the elect, predestined, chosen" etc than I can on "free will". You: "However, he will not go back on his word now." Me: I agree, God doesn't go back on His word. In fact, listen to the Scripture: Romans 11 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. This seems to say that, in spite of the hardness of Israel, God will save them because He promised... they were numbered among the elect based on God's promise alone... seemingly in spite of their bad free-will choice. And then there is this... Romans 9 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. (A very interesting verse!): 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. This seems to say that salvation is based solely on God's sovereignty, not our actions. Or this... Romans 8 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. This seems to say that even what is in our heart comes from the Spirit and, without the intercession of the Spirit, we would be lost. I understand and struggle as you do with the "robot problem". But I also want to submit myself to God's sovereignty. In the final analysis, it is His way, not the way I wish it was (whether elect or free will). Finally, I don't think that the Great Commission and election are necessarily mutually exclusive. God can use us to accomplish His purposes, even if His purposes are pre-known to Him. Otherwise, I think I'll let those verses stand on their own for a while. Blessings! Curt |
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3 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Robert Nicholson | 33415 | ||
Brother Curt: Just a short reply for now. I appreciate your fairness in comparing our thoughts on God's word. In 1 Cor. 10:32 we read about 3 groups of people in the world at the time of Paul and extends even to now. "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:" When we study the purposes of God in his Grace we need to keep in mind the 3 groups: The Jew or Israel refers to God's chosen people through whom he choose to work throughout the old testament. He gave them prophecies which pointed to the coming Messiah who is their redeemer. However, we find that when he came into the world the Jews as a nation rejected him. We find that they as a nation has been set aside, but God is not finished with them yet as you have pointed out. He will turn back to Israel after this dispensation of Grace is over. The Gentiles or pagan nations were outside the promises of God and yet God in his eternal mercy and grace had a plan for them. He turned to the Gentile nations after the death of Christ. We find that the apostles preached the gospel to Israel first, to Samaria and then to Gentiles. In this dispensation of Grace God is dealing in grace with individuals from all backgrounds "for there is no difference". The Church of God as described in 1 Cor.12 consists of all believers who have been saved from the cross onward. I agree that God is all knowing, it is difficult for the finite to comprehend the infinite. God's sovereign will and plan will come to pass. The gift of eternal life is all of God. It was his plan and purpose to save those who are lost. He speaks to us by his spirit, through his people and through life's circumstances. He prepares our heart until like the jailor of old we exclaim "What must I do to be saved" At that point God by his spirit reveals to us the truth that Christ died for our sins on the cross at this point we rest in him. God bless Robert |
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4 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33428 | ||
Thanks Robert for your patience and time. I am not sure I can agree with the dispensation view, but you have done it justice. For now, in my feeble brain, it remains juxtaposed with the predestination view which is obviously a struggle as well. There is likely truth in both views, and this is what I have been seeking to understand. Not there yet! What I do know is that God has provided a means of salvation for you and me. The Glory belongs to Him, whether or not we understand the how and why. Amen? Amen! Blessings Curt |
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5 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Morant61 | 33453 | ||
Greetings Curt! If you are interested in a postion which I think does justice to both election and free will, I would recommend the book, "Elect in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Election" by Robert Shank - published by Westcott Publishers. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33500 | ||
Tim Thanks for the info! Fyi, I opened a thread with the header "Thoughts on Romans 9". Ben (benjamite) and I wanted to discuss the concepts of election and free will. He is seminary trained, and I wanted to get feedback at that level. I know this is a hot topic, but Ben and I have agreed to try and keep the fray civil among all respondents. (I wish there were a way in this forum to have limited group discussions, but dont see how). Anyway, I've read a number of your posts and have appreciated your comments. I thought you might want to join us on this discussion. Any interest? Blessings Curt |
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7 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Morant61 | 33504 | ||
Greetings Curt! I'm always interested in a good discussion! :-) And, I always "try" to be civil! :-) Romans 9 is one of my favorite chapters, mainly because I did a 4 credit independent study on Rom. 9-11 in college. Whew! I was either very brave or very stupid! :-) But, I learned a lot and really enjoyed myself. I'll try to input where I can, but I may just read the first few! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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