Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33322 | ||
Brother Robert I'm not sure that I generally disagree with your theology, but I want to make you think about your argument for it. You said, "I do not believe that the scripture supports salvation which is dependent upon works" No debate here based on Ephesians 2:8-9. Then you said, "The Lord Jesus made many positive statements which assures us that upon receiving or trusting him "we have eternal life". Isn't that theology dependent on works... ie, WE have to "receive and trust" Him in order to be saved? Isn't that something WE do? Ephesians 2:-9 says that we are saved by grace through faith... and this is not of ourselves... thus, even our faith is a gift from God. Romans 3:11 says that no one seeks for God. If these things are so, then we have eternal life purely as a gift from God, not of our own works. More to the original point, in Matthew 13 (the parable of the sower) tells us 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. So Jesus is saying that it is possible to hear God's word and RECEIVE it, and yet fall away. Now I realize that we could debate whether the man was really saved. I would postulate that your John 3:16 defense is based on the notion that if I trust God at some point, I will always trust God. This may be true, but I don't think John 3:16 says this. Matthew 13:20-21 seems to refute this. And just to muddy the water a little more: 2 Thessalonians 2 13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God CHOSE you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. John 10:27-30 says that the sheep cannot be snatched from the shepherd's hand, and that the sheep are given to the shepherd by his father. Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen." Mark 13 19 "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. 20 "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the ELECT, whom He CHOSE, He shortened the days. John 15 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I CHOSE you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. Ephesians 1 3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For He CHOSE us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love 5 He PREDESTINED us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will-- I don't bring these verses up to be obnoxious. I truly struggle with the notion of God choosing us, yet Scripture is full of this concept. God chooses to save whom he will, as in Abraham, Noah, the OT Jews, up through the disciples, Paul and you and me apparently. This is relevant to the original point because, if God chooses us, can we unchoose God? A lot to ponder. In Him Curt |
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2 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Robert Nicholson | 33392 | ||
Brother Curt: Who does God Choose? Why did he Choose me, you, other? Jesus said “I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5:32) Jesus said “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37) Who did Jesus die for? Paul writes “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” (1 Timothy 1:15) John writes “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins ofthe whole world”.( 1 John 2:2) What is God’s will for all people? Paul writes about God “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”( 1 Tim: 2:4) Why then are all not saved? In fact as you have pointed “many are called, but few are chosen” Paul writes to the Romans in chp. 3 “Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe” V.22 There are two groups in this verse: the righteousness of God is offered to all. Yet it is only upon all them that believe. As you have pointed out from Romans 3:11 “There is none that seeketh after God” and in the following verses 12-19 God shows us the sinfulness of our human heart. There is no difference,we are all the same, there is nothing in us that would attract God to us. At the end of this summary God concludes: “Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight” Rom. 3:20 How then does one get saved if we are so hopelessly lost and dead in sin? We must remember that the good shepherd will always go after the sheep which is lost and bring him to safety in the fold. John 10 Jesus taught his disciples of the coming of the Holy Spirit into the world after his death and “when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. (John 14:7) When God looked on the human race in Noah’s day he said “My Spirit shall not always strive with man” Gen. 6:3 God by his spirit speaks to lost sinners in this world through those who know Christ, through his word and through the circumstances in life. He speaks to us of our sin through our conscience, he speaks concerning the righteousness of God through Christ and he speaks of judgment to come. Humans are not robots, like Adam of old they are capable of hearing the voice of God by his Spirit. I do not believe that faith is a work. God calls lost sinners to himself by his spirit. When we here his call we must respond. It is true that he called us often before we knew that it was he that was speaking. Nevertheless, when God call us he will bring us to a point in which he will open our understanding regarding the work of Christ. However, if we refuse to accept our lost sinful condition and rest upon Christ for salvation we will not be saved. There are many examples in scripture of people who were spoken to time and time again, but there came a point when it was too late. Faith is a conviction within which gives us assurance that Christ is sufficient for our salvation. It is a truth that is revealed to us by the Spirit of God, it is not a true which we can conjure up on our own. If we were to look at the many people who came to Christ when he walked on this earth we find that he usually waited for a response before he blessed them. Think of the cripple man who was carried to the roof by his friends because of the crowds surrounding the savior. They tore up the tiles and let the man down at Jesus feet. The Bible says “When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.” (Mark 2:5) It seems to me that our repentance is acknowledging that God is right about our sin and to turn to him in all our need, at this point by his spirit he will reveal Christ to us. We do nothing except rest in him. You were correct, A lot to ponder! In Christ Robert |
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3 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33393 | ||
An excellent response! With such a lengthy and thoughtful exposition, I bet you thought I would thank you and move on. Well, I do feel a little hesitant asking another series of questions, but no one ever accused me of shyness. Tell me to get lost if you want, but here goes! Outside of God's grace, is there anyone worthy of salvation? (I assume you agree the answer is "no") So God, in His infinite justice could opt to save no one and still be just. (agree or disagree?) It is only out of God's love and mercy that He saves anyone. (agree/disagree?) He could choose to save some and not others? (yes/no?) This would be just? Does the parable in Matthew 20:1-15 address this? What are the implications of this Scripture in terms of the "doctrine of election"? Are all elect or just some... are all chosen or just some? Are all predestined... etc? Does God choose, then we choose? Or does God just choose? Thoughts? That I might not be deemed lazy, I will attempt to postulate answers to these questions myself but wanted to hear your view first. I will hint that I believe God predestined us, He calls us, and that even our response to Him is the result of His grace... that we could not respond affirmatively if He had not opened our eyes and prepared our hearts. PS, would it surprise you to know I am Presbyterian? ... lol. My purpose is not, however, to win converts to Calvinism, (Lord knows, I am not the guy to do that!) but to debate with other respected Christians to gain an increased understanding of Scripture. Thanks for your insight! Curt |
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4 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Robert Nicholson | 33401 | ||
Brother Curt: I am not surprised that you are Presbyterian. I have considered Calvinism and Arminism against the scriptures and find myself somewhat in the middle. In reponse to your questions: "Outside of God's grace, is there anyone worthy of salvation? (I assume you agree the answer is "no") " (I agree) "So God, in His infinite justice could opt to save no one and still be just. (agree or disagree?)" In his eternal purposes I agree. However, he will not go back on his word now. It is only out of God's love and mercy that He saves anyone. (agree/disagree?) ( Amen!) "He could choose to save some and not others? (yes/no?) This would be just?" (yes he is sovereign) "Does the parable in Matthew 20:1-15 address this?" ( certainly in the sense that the householder was sovereign in dispensing of his own wealth." "What are the implications of this Scripture in terms of the "doctrine of election"? " We could certainly apply this scripture to election in the sense that we cannot question the grace of God. Are all elect or just some... are all chosen or just some? Are all predestined... etc? ( I believe that all who are in Christ are elect of God and are predestined to the adoption of children) The question here is "Are there some people who are not choosen because they choose not to listen to the Spirit of God? "Does God choose, then we choose? Or does God just choose?" I believe that God speaks to us by his spirit and reveals to us our need of Christ. Our choice is to simply rest upon what the Holy Spirit reveals to us about the sacrifice of Christ. In 1 Cor. 1 Paul speaks the method God has chosen to reach lost sinners "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." In other words we preach the gospel to all and allow the Spirit of God to work with individuals. In the same chapter Paul speaks of election and who is chosen "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." 1 Cor. 1:26-29 I think that based upon the sciptures above that Christ came to call lost sinners. Proud, self-righeous need not apply. Curt: I understand the theory of 5 point Calvinism. I have difficulty reconciling this theory with free choice. Your second last paragraph I would agree with to a degree. However, I also believe that sinners can reject Christ. If we believe that it is God who gives us our response, than we would be considered robots. Even sinners who in their life God used to bring about his purposes made a choice to harden their hearts against him before he finally hardened their hearts forever. Examples: Esau and Pharaoh. God is not unrighteous. The commission of our saviour in Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." is still valid today. Even a Calvinist cannot pick out those who are chosen and those who are not. I have a question: If each person who is and will be saved is absolutely chosen by name, why did the apostles in their time and people in these times,go to such lengths to spread the gospel to the "whosoever will"? Why is the last invitation in the Bible in Rev. to the whosoever? Another thing I noticed. Is that God tends to save people who are related to people who know Christ. Yet I believe that our salvation is very personal and is not part of family relationships. "I wonder what he saw in me to suffer such deep agony?" I will stop for now God bless you Robert |
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5 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33406 | ||
I agree with most of what you have said. Let me respond to a couple... (and please understand that I don't necessarily hold all of these as personal beliefs, but I am postulating for the sake of debate): You: "The commission of our saviour in Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." is still valid today. Even a Calvinist cannot pick out those who are chosen and those who are not." Me: I agree that God has invited us to be part of His purposes. This alone does not deny that the people we encounter may be part of the "elect". You are right, we can't pick out the elect, thus we are called to go to the ends of the earth spreading the Gospel. But this doesn't mean that God doesn't have them picked out. You: "I understand the theory of 5 point Calvinism. I have difficulty reconciling this theory with free choice." Me: While free choice seems right to us, I can find many more Scriptures regarding "the elect, predestined, chosen" etc than I can on "free will". You: "However, he will not go back on his word now." Me: I agree, God doesn't go back on His word. In fact, listen to the Scripture: Romans 11 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. This seems to say that, in spite of the hardness of Israel, God will save them because He promised... they were numbered among the elect based on God's promise alone... seemingly in spite of their bad free-will choice. And then there is this... Romans 9 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son." 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. (A very interesting verse!): 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. This seems to say that salvation is based solely on God's sovereignty, not our actions. Or this... Romans 8 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. This seems to say that even what is in our heart comes from the Spirit and, without the intercession of the Spirit, we would be lost. I understand and struggle as you do with the "robot problem". But I also want to submit myself to God's sovereignty. In the final analysis, it is His way, not the way I wish it was (whether elect or free will). Finally, I don't think that the Great Commission and election are necessarily mutually exclusive. God can use us to accomplish His purposes, even if His purposes are pre-known to Him. Otherwise, I think I'll let those verses stand on their own for a while. Blessings! Curt |
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6 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Robert Nicholson | 33415 | ||
Brother Curt: Just a short reply for now. I appreciate your fairness in comparing our thoughts on God's word. In 1 Cor. 10:32 we read about 3 groups of people in the world at the time of Paul and extends even to now. "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:" When we study the purposes of God in his Grace we need to keep in mind the 3 groups: The Jew or Israel refers to God's chosen people through whom he choose to work throughout the old testament. He gave them prophecies which pointed to the coming Messiah who is their redeemer. However, we find that when he came into the world the Jews as a nation rejected him. We find that they as a nation has been set aside, but God is not finished with them yet as you have pointed out. He will turn back to Israel after this dispensation of Grace is over. The Gentiles or pagan nations were outside the promises of God and yet God in his eternal mercy and grace had a plan for them. He turned to the Gentile nations after the death of Christ. We find that the apostles preached the gospel to Israel first, to Samaria and then to Gentiles. In this dispensation of Grace God is dealing in grace with individuals from all backgrounds "for there is no difference". The Church of God as described in 1 Cor.12 consists of all believers who have been saved from the cross onward. I agree that God is all knowing, it is difficult for the finite to comprehend the infinite. God's sovereign will and plan will come to pass. The gift of eternal life is all of God. It was his plan and purpose to save those who are lost. He speaks to us by his spirit, through his people and through life's circumstances. He prepares our heart until like the jailor of old we exclaim "What must I do to be saved" At that point God by his spirit reveals to us the truth that Christ died for our sins on the cross at this point we rest in him. God bless Robert |
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7 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33428 | ||
Thanks Robert for your patience and time. I am not sure I can agree with the dispensation view, but you have done it justice. For now, in my feeble brain, it remains juxtaposed with the predestination view which is obviously a struggle as well. There is likely truth in both views, and this is what I have been seeking to understand. Not there yet! What I do know is that God has provided a means of salvation for you and me. The Glory belongs to Him, whether or not we understand the how and why. Amen? Amen! Blessings Curt |
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8 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Morant61 | 33453 | ||
Greetings Curt! If you are interested in a postion which I think does justice to both election and free will, I would recommend the book, "Elect in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Election" by Robert Shank - published by Westcott Publishers. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Curtnsally | 33500 | ||
Tim Thanks for the info! Fyi, I opened a thread with the header "Thoughts on Romans 9". Ben (benjamite) and I wanted to discuss the concepts of election and free will. He is seminary trained, and I wanted to get feedback at that level. I know this is a hot topic, but Ben and I have agreed to try and keep the fray civil among all respondents. (I wish there were a way in this forum to have limited group discussions, but dont see how). Anyway, I've read a number of your posts and have appreciated your comments. I thought you might want to join us on this discussion. Any interest? Blessings Curt |
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10 | cut off | Rom 11:22 | Morant61 | 33504 | ||
Greetings Curt! I'm always interested in a good discussion! :-) And, I always "try" to be civil! :-) Romans 9 is one of my favorite chapters, mainly because I did a 4 credit independent study on Rom. 9-11 in college. Whew! I was either very brave or very stupid! :-) But, I learned a lot and really enjoyed myself. I'll try to input where I can, but I may just read the first few! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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