Results 1 - 4 of 4
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 62564 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, “Tom and Jerry (unregenerate man) are wicked rebels and not innocent children.” However, I never said in the analogy that Tom and Jerry were innocent children." Please, any one reading your analogy can see that they are portrayed as innocent. It did'nt need to be spelled out for goodness sake! "All I said was that they were born with a condition (missing legs) that they could not change themselves." Neither twin wants nor desires new legs (heart) biblicaly speaking. They hate the idea of new legs and think this talk of ice cream is all hogwash anyway. "All I said was that the parent created Tom and Jerry a certain way (without any legs)." Yes but you failed to mention WHY they were created without legs (hearts of stone). It portrays the parent's decision as arbitrary, when, as we know (for the bible tell us so), that they were cursed by God because in Adam all (Tom and Jerry included) fell. " Let’s not quibble over body parts". OK "Your third reason was that “It was the sin of Adam that brought the curse of moral deformity upon our 2 rebels. Nevertheless, The Father is blameless.” You do agree so far, do you not? "we both agreed to: God unchangeably ordains everything that comes to pass. And in a previous post we also agreed that God is omniscient" Yes indeed, we did agree. " God knew before He created Adam that if He created him the way He intended, then Adam WOULD sin. Thus, when God chose to create Adam that way anyway, He was in effect creating a universe that WOULD be full of people who were unable to choose to love God (unless God changed their hearts)." Yes, so far so good. I assume you find nothing unsrciptural thus far. "I have tried to clarify why I still believe this analogy is an accurate one. Please let me know if you have any other reasons why you believe it is not." It may be accurate in a technical sense, but is too misleading to be of any real value in portraying God as He really is: JUST, MERCIFULL, HOLY, ALL KNOWING, ALLPOWERFUL ,LOVE PERSONIFIED and PERFECT IN ALL HIS WAYS. Please forgive me for saying so, but the parent in your analogy comes across as a monster. This is a common error of those who believe that if fallen man is unable (even if his inability is due to his own rebellious heart and it's wicked desires)then God would have to have been unjust. They then rush to defend against what they percieve as an attack against God by portaying the opposite view as a monstrosity. Please Sir Pent, I do not accuse you or anyone else of deliberately attempting to subvert the Bible or defame God in any way. God Forbid. It is merely a natural reaction to a percieved evil. And it is commendable to fight for GOD'S HONOR! What I hope to do is to show that God has done what He has done as taught in the Scripture and the view that says He has foreordained all things is not inconsistant with a Just and Holy God. Your Brother in Christ, John |
||||||
2 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62622 | ||
Continued Clarification ........................................... Dear John, You said that it was implied (although not stated) in my analogy that the children were innocent. Feel free to change the first sentance of the analogy to: “Imagine a parent who has twin children, Tom and Jerry, who were consistently disobedient.” I did not intend for the children to be seen as perfect and apologise for any confusion on that point. ........................................... You said that neither child wants legs or ice cream. However, in the Calvinist perspective, the reason for this lack of desire is due to the way that God set up the universe. After all, you agreed that God created “a universe that WOULD be full of people who were unable to choose to love God (unless God changed their hearts)." That once again fits with the analogy that the parent genetically engineered Tom and Jerry’s condition. ........................................... You complained that the parent’s decision to make them without legs was arbitrary, when it was Adam’s fall that caused it. However, according to Calvinist perspective God’s choosing to create the universe in the way that He did (which led to Adam’s fall, and Tom and Jerry’s leglessness) WAS arbitrary. There are many posts on this forum where people defending Calvinism, state that God’s actions are arbitrary (defined: depending on individual descretion) and completely independent from any exterior influence. You, yourself have previously stated that God’s actions were just “founded on His good pleasure”. I think this part of the analogy very accurately describes the Calvinist perspective. ........................................... OK, so once again I have pointed out why the analogy is an accurate reflection of the Calvinist view of scripture. in fact, you have even admited that it is “accurate in a technical sense”. Then you complain that it makes God appear to be different from what we both know that He is: “JUST, MERCIFULL, HOLY, ALL KNOWING, ALLPOWERFUL ,LOVE PERSONIFIED and PERFECT IN ALL HIS WAYS”. You say that it makes him “come across as a monster.” I agree that this would be the first conclusion that someone would come to when examining the Calvinist perspective. However, in fairness to what you believe, let’s just assume that there is some explanation for why this first conclusion is wrong. I am fine with that. Once again, I don’t have a problem with you believing that the perspective is right. I am just asking with this analogy if the choices that Tom and Jerry make are REALLY MADE FREELY. Do they REALLY have the ABILITY to CHOOSE? ........................................... Finally, I just wanted to remind you that there are two other points that I made a yesturday, that I am still looking forward to reading your thoughts on. After all, my original question was not about whether Calvinist perspective really believes in free choice, but rather, whether Arminian perspective really believes in a sovereign God. As far as I’m concerned, this free choice part of the thread is more of a side issue. ........................................... Also, I noticed that the Lockman Foundation is discouraging divisive posts based on denominational differences. I want to thank you for your continued participation in this thread which I still think has the potential to eventually lead to at least some consensus on one of these issues, and bring unity instead of divisiveness. I find that very exciting, and am glad to be able to discuss this with another person who can very rationally look at the issue from as much of an objective viewpoint as possible. Keep up the good work. |
||||||
3 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 62628 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, I'm off to grand parents day at the kid's school so must rush. I will respond more fully and hopefully more clearly as well, God willing. I think that our conversation is an attempt to foster understanding rather than discord. I pray it will continue with that goal in mind. Mere arguement is impotent without God's Spirit. He must intervene before the truth is percieved. John |
||||||
4 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62633 | ||
Personal Note ............................................. Dear John, I hope you had fun at grandparent’s day. It is a great blessing to have both kids and grandkids. I hope that someday, I’ll be able to join you in that club. I also see our conversation as an attempt for both of us (and potentially many others who read this) to gain understanding. Hopefully, out of it will come not only a clearer picture of what each of us believe differently, but more importantly what things we can both believe in agreement regardless of our respective viewpoints. I also agree with you in my hope that God will help us both to remain open to learn from this conversation. God bless! |
||||||