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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61498 | ||
A Different View ......................................... There has been a lot of venting since I posted last regarding the futility and devisiveness of C and A debates on this forum. I agree that these debates can be futile and divisive if the people are just covering the same ground repeatedly (quoting the same verses that each side always quotes, for instance). However, I believe that John Reformed and I are actually covering new ground here. I don’t think that there has been another thread that significantly covers whether it is possible for God to be sovereign from an Arminian perspective. I also think that this is one area where it is actually possible to reach consensus. Maybe I’ll be proved wrong, but I’d like to at least give it a try. I have enjoyed the discussion so far, and am up for it if you are John Reformed. You gave 3 reasons why God can’t be sovereign from the Arminian perspective. Let’s look at your points in reverse order. ......................................... You said that Scripture speaks throughout of predestination and fore ordination. I fail to see the relevance. I’ll grant that from your perspective those verses say that God excersizes complete control over the salvation of each individual. However, that doesn’t say anything about whether God would still be in control if He chose not to excersize that control at all times. ......................................... You also said that “If even one atom of matter is free from God's absolute control then chaos could result.” I believe that in one since you are correct. If the universe were completely free from God’s control, you would end up with chaos. Coincidentally (?) in science we learn that is exactly what is happening. It is called entropy, and it is the realization that all things are naturally going from a state of order to a state of disorder (just look at a child’s bedroom). However, I would say that God sustains the universe (biblical idea here), and keeps it from falling apart until He is ready for that to happen. I would also say that it is possible to delegate a limited amount of freedom to subjects without creating utter chaos. ......................................... Finally, you also said, “God is sovereign in a way that no mere creature can be described as sovereign.” I agree that God is sovereign beyond any mere creature, but how does that change anything. In fact, if a mere parent can allow their child to pick which slide to go down in the park without it diminishing the parent’s strenth and ability, then wouldn’t it be logical that God (who has infinately more power) could allow a human to choose whether to love Him or not without it diminishing God’s power or control? |
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2 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | JRdoc | 61512 | ||
Sir Pent: YOU SAID: "In fact, if a mere parent can allow their child to pick which slide to go down in the park without it diminishing the parent’s strength and ability, then wouldn’t it be logical that God (who has infinately more power) could allow a human to choose whether to love Him or not without it diminishing God’s power or control?" The difference is God knows which slide had razor blades put on it the night before by .....and would not desire "this child" to slide to his death. In other words God is Sovereign in both ability, knowledge, and His desire, (etc) which shall take place. Your word picture also fails to picture that the child is dead and can not slide in the first place..... he is "dead" in trespasses and sin thus not alive to choose. It fails to recognize that the child does not know what a slide is and does not know even how to use it. Remember we are talking about “initial” salvation.—thus the question “What must I do to be saved?”, not “What choice will I make?” Since, no man seeketh after God, who do you think puts this in the heart of man to ask—God. Where you are missing it at here is Total Depravity, which I assume you do not believe, but contend man still has "some" ability. But from the C- perspective (and from Scripture) man does not have the "any ability" to chose God, UNTIL God chooses him. To affirm that he does makes salvation a "work," to which God then would not be the author of salvation. C- does not do away with choice, it just looks at choice in a different time-line and degree than A- C- Sees God enabling man (making him alive) so then he will irresistibly chose what he could not see in the past---As per my example in the Sovereignty and Free-Will thread. After salvation C- sees man having a freer choice (one with light), but still not as free as A- asserts: 1 Thess 2:18 .....there are still hindrances to our will after salvation as well....can we chose when Christ is coming again..... Some desire this or that and never attain this or that, because God says your thoughts are not my thoughts, neither are your ways my ways......and God controls the elements, the circumstances, the conversations, the issues, "all" without exception, to accomplish His direction in "each life" (not just the saved) so His will, will be carried out in its entirety—it is His universe! He may do this both directly and indirectly and without sin. ...”Everything” affects “Everything” else and if God is not sovereign in “all, without exception”, than He can not be God, for “Something” would not be under His immediate and direct control and thus “Everything” from that point would change “Everything” else. Simply if it were not for the sovereignty of God in life then the dead could never chose God—one logically comes before the other. Lazarus came forth when his name (very specific) was called (he came to life and then came forth and then was loosed…), not before because he was dead…..Lydia did not chose first, but God opened her heart…… (Acts 16)……(Acts 26:18, John 12:37-41, et. al. ) Simply, if you attempt to isolate the Sovereignty of God from the Depravity of man you will end in error when it comes to the theology of the atonement. |
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3 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61525 | ||
The Dollar Store ........................................ Dear John, That last post of yours covered a lot of topics, but I will try to weed through to only the ones that actually deal specifiically with the sovereignity of God WITHIN the Arminian perspective. ........................................ Therefore your comment about the razor blades is not germane. This is a question of whether God would be loving to let the child choose the bad slide. We’re not talking about whether God is loving. Your comment about the child not being able to slide down either slide or even knowing what a slide is, is also not germane. That is not an idea held WITHIN the Arminian perspective. Nor is the idea of Total Depravity which is therefore also not germane. Please remember that we are only talking about whether it is possible for God to be soverign in the Arminian perspective, thus it is not helpful to try to convince me to believe in the Calvinist perspective. ........................................ Finally at the end of your post you mention that God would not be sovereign if anything “would not be under His immediate and direct control and thus everything from that point would change everything else.” I can understand why you might think that, but let’s look at it a little closer. It is possible for a being to allow limited freedom within a system while still being in control. For instance, in our town their is a store where everything costs 1 dollar. Now a parent could go to that store and lay a dollar bill on the counter and then tell their kid to go pick out any on thing in the store and the money on the counter will pay for it. The kid then actually does have freedom to choose whatever they want, but the parent’s “prophecy” will still come true when they bring it up to be paid for and the dollar bill is already there. This is an example of a time when a subject can be given both the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make a choice while at the same time some future things will not change. ........................................ Since God is all powerful, couldn’t He do the same thing? Couldn’t He create a universe where humans have the FREEDOM and ABILITY to choose whether to love God or not, yet at the same time be able to determine several critical points along the way (including the end of time)? And if God had the ability to, at any point, take back over and dictate everything, then wouldn’t He still be completely in control? Just because God chooses not to excersize His abilitiy to dictate everything, does that make Him cease to be supremely powerful? |
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4 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | JRdoc | 61538 | ||
1. YOU SAID: “Dear John, “ John did not write this! -JRdoc, unless of course this is my good-bye letter to be kept from the forum… 2. YOU SAID: “that actually deal specifiically with the sovereignity of God WITHIN the Arminian perspective”….” That is not an idea held WITHIN the Arminian perspective.” So I cannot look at Scripture to assert the truth. The Arminian perspective is a philosophy. You can not begin with a false premise (philosophy) and end up with truth! Begin with a Scripture and lets examine that, but this “from the Arminian perspective” business, just because you assert it does not make it truth. State a specific Scripture. Let us look at the Greek or Hebrew. Let us discuss the Word of God and not a slide or the Dollar Store—though your illustrations were found faulty. 3. YOU SAID: “ Please remember that we are only talking about whether it is possible for God to be soverign in the Arminian perspective, thus it is not helpful to try to convince me to believe in the Calvinist perspective.” It is not possible “for God to be sovereign in the Arminian perspective” and since I cannot use Scripture, it is not possible to state the truth. Arminianism sees man as “partly” sovereign and in turn takes away from God’s total control (sovereignty). Again, I stressed in the original reply that C- does not deny a will, but at a different time and to a different degree than A- 4. YOU SAID: “For instance, in our town their is a store where everything costs 1 dollar. Now a parent could go to that store and lay a dollar bill on the counter and then tell their kid to go pick out any on thing in the store and the money on the counter will pay for it. The kid then actually does have freedom to choose whatever they want, but the parent’s “prophecy” will still come true when they bring it up to be paid for and the dollar bill is already there. This is an example of a time when a subject can be given both the FREEDOM and the ABILITY to make a choice while at the same time some future things will not change. Since God is all powerful, couldn’t He do the same thing” A. Yes, he will pick something that costs a dollar, but he would never select that which belongs to God: Rom 3:11 “There is NONE that UNDERSTANDETH, there is NONE that SEEKETH after God.” Or in this case NONE would SELECT God’s merchandise for he would not have a will to this disposition. The God of this world has blinded him so he could not see to make that selection.—SCRIPTURE!—2 Cor 4:4. B. Again, you assume the child is spiritually alive to make this choice when the Scripture affirms he is dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1). He is dead he can not see or even walk to God’s shelf. C. You are assuming God is parent that only offers a “chance” at salvation and are making the offer a smorgasbord (The Dollar Store). The Scripture says: John 6: 40 And THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM that sent me, THAT EVERY ONE WHICH SEETH the Son, and BELIEVETH ON HIM [a gift], MAY [without a doubt, not just a chance] have everlasting life: and I WILL [without a doubt, not just a chance] raise him up at the last day. (chapter 17 of John has several other illustrations, et. al.). Jesus went after the 1 lost sheep (not goat), salvation is more than a “possibility,” it is God’s eternal “promise” to His elect. D. You fail to understand the “foreknowledge “ of God—meaning relational-ship knowledge (Gen 4:1; Rom 8—pro-ginosoko, yada). God has a relational-ship knowledge with His elect from before the foundation of the world (Eph 1) and has elected, predestined His choice (Rom 9). 5. YOU SAID: “Couldn’t He create a universe where humans have the FREEDOM and ABILITY to choose whether to love God or not, yet at the same time be able to determine several critical points along the way (including the end of time)? And if God had the ability to, at any point, take back over and dictate everything, then wouldn’t He still be completely in control? See you changed the sovereignty of God when you said “several critical points”, but not “all points—and all are critical” so you are asserting that God is only partly sovereign? The only way Arminianism may come close to proving its point is not to look at the Scripture. 6. YOU SAID: “Just because God chooses not to excersize His abilitiy to dictate everything, does that make Him cease to be supremely powerful?” Yes it does. Dan 4: 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou? |
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5 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61540 | ||
Personal Note, Oops ..................................... Dear JRdoc, I apologize for calling you by the wrong name. I assumed that it was John Reformed who was responding to my last post, since he and I have been pretty much exclusively responding on this topic (not that others aren’t welcome, just that most others have given up all hope of reaching consensus on anything related to C and A). So again, I’m sorry for any confusion I might have caused. ..................................... Now on to your post. I will try to respond to you points one at a time. 1. I called you the wrong name. See above. 2. You want to discuss specific scripture verses to prove that Calvinism is correct. I’m not interested. You have already done that with other people on this forum, and I don’t seek redundancy. The purpose of this thread is solely to discuss whether it is possible for a person with an Arminian perspective to believe in a sovereign God. 3. You say that “It is not possible for God to be sovereign in the Arminian perspective” (but you don’t say why). Then you say that “Arminianism sees man as partly sovereign”. However, John Reformed pointed out previously and I agree that there is no such thing as “partly” sovereign. One either is supremely powerful or not. 4. You say that the child would never pick something in the store that belongs to God (and quote more scriptures supporting Calvinism). Once again this is irrelevant to the question of this thread; see above. ..................................... 5 and 6. Here you say that God would be less in control if He chooses to dictate some things that happen in the history of the universe than if He chose to dictate every single thing that has ever happened or ever will happen. Please explain why you think that. You quote a verse from Daniel that says that noone on Earth could “stay His (God’s) hand”. I interpret this to mean that noone can stop God from doing anything He chooses to do. That doesn’t tell us anything about whether God is less powerful if He chooses NOT to do something. In my thinking, a being is NOT any less powerful just because it chooses not to do something that it is capable of. ..................................... In summary, I am interested in your thoughts on points 5 and 6, but don’t particularly desire any further discussion on points 1, 2, 3, and 4. You may of course respond to them anyway, you have both the FREEDOM and the ABILITY :) |
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6 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 61621 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, It's me, John. :) In reading through your note to Jrdoc, I came across the following statment of yours: "You want to discuss specific scripture verses to prove that Calvinism is correct. I’m not interested". Are you certain that JR is primarily concerned with defending his theological perspective or do you assume that that is his goal. If we are to reach even the modest goal of consensus, we must pay special attention to the the words of our co-laborers. I have learned (the hard way) that assuptions are the major stumbling block to communication! I see JR's greatest concern to be what he percieves as your (apparent) prohibition of Scripture. He said "So I cannot look at Scripture to assert the truth". What he heard from your statement above (it seems to me) is "You want to discuss specific scripture verses .... I’m not interested". your thoughts? John |
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7 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61838 | ||
Clarification ...................................... Dear John, You took one sentance from my post out of the context that it was in and then claimed that its meaning was unclear. Let's put it back in context and look at it. ...................................... I said, "You want to discuss specific scripture verses to prove that Calvinism is correct. I’m not interested. You have already done that with other people on this forum, and I don’t seek redundancy. The purpose of this thread is solely to discuss whether it is possible for a person with an Arminian perspective to believe in a sovereign God." ...................................... I believe that when read in context it is obvious that I my "prohibition" as you call it was very specific. I was not prohibiting all scripture from being used. Instead I was trying to maintain the focus of this thread by avoiding scriptures that merely support Calvinism in general (which would have been redundant with other threads that do that very thing). ...................................... I think that in context, my meaning was clear. However, it appears that JRdoc did misunderstand what I said, becuase he referred to me in a different thread as trying to prohibit from posting anything on this forum at all. Therefore, I did reply to him (in that thread) to clear up any misunderstanding that might have been there. |
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8 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 61844 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, I did not mean to imply that your statement was actually unclear. But my desire was to show that it was percieved to say something other than your intended meaning. I am on a mission to warn people to read and reread posts that they recieve from each other and to assertain the intended meaning of the "Poster" before they proceed to reply to that particular post. It may require a sub-post asking for clarification. I believe if we practised this discipline that many of us would avoid fights and wounded feelings. Neither one edifies the church or glorifies God. For instance: You said: "Dear John, You took one sentance from my post out of the context that it was in and then claimed that its meaning was unclear". Your statement could be taken as a straightforward remark or as a rebuke insinuating a deliberate deeption on my part. I took it in the former sense because our posts have been polite and not contentious. But if on the other hand we had been engaged in a hot debate it could easily be recieved in the latter sense. John |
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9 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61867 | ||
Personal Note ...................................... Dear John, Sounds like a good mission. There are obviously limitations to any conversation that can only be carried out with the written word. Lacking tone of voice, body language, facial expression, etc. can often make interpretation difficult. It is therefore very important that we all dilligently try to "assertain the intended meaning" of posts before responding. You make a great point. ................................................ P.S. Having started on this forum over a year ago, I am glad that I can say, "to the best of my knowledge I have never been in a hot debate with anyone here". |
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10 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 61869 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, The Lord has indeed favored you. I must return to work for now, but I promise to go over our lonely little thread and see if I can find a place to begin in regard to your original proposition. God Bless, John |
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