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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61594 | ||
Dear John, Please let me clarify. You said, “You have granted that, at least fom my perspective, the Bible may indicate God's absolute control over all things. What I am interested in is what do those verse say from your perspective. “ Actually I am proposing that those verses say the say thing regardless of whether you are a C or A. I am saying that both perspectives believe that God has absolute control and is sovereign. It seems the burden of proof is on the C perspective to provide verses that show that the A perspective makes the sovereignity of God impossible. |
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2 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 61618 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, You threw me off with your qualifier, "from your perspective", which led me to believe that you may have had a different perspective. May I conclude then that you and I are of the same mind regarding God's absolute control? For now I will take it thay yes we are agreed. You then said: "It seems the burden of proof is on the C perspective to provide verses that show that the A perspective makes the sovereignity of God impossible." My answer from logic would be that: A cannot be A and non A at the same time. Since Scripture does not mention natural man's ability to choose spiritual good, but has many instances that prove his inability (I can produce for you many if you wish) the task you have set for me ("..to provide verses that show that the A perspective makes the sovereignity of God impossible") is impossible! 1. Find that which does not exist. 2. Prove that something (The Sovereignty of God from the A perspective)is impossible. What do you suggest I do? John |
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3 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61691 | ||
Clarification ............................................... Dear John, It appears that our thread has been restricted and will no longer appear on the general webpage. I suppose that is good if we are unable to come to consensus as everyone seems to believe, however, I think it would be a shame if we actually were able to resolve this issue and noone could see it. ............................................... It seems that you are a bit confused about my question, so I’ll try to explain it more clearly. Calvinists have one perspective on interpreting scripture. They read verses to say that God has absolute control which He excersizes at all times to dictate everything that happens. They believe that within the box, people actually have FREEDOM to make choices, but that those choices are completely controlled by the ABILITIES that God grants. Thus, they believe that God is supremely powerful and sovereign. ............................................... Arminians, on the other hand, interpret those same verses differently. The believe that God has the ability to absolutely control the universe, but that He chooses not to excersize that ability at all times. Instead, they believe that God has created humans in such a way that they have both the FREEDOM and ABILITY to choose whether to love God or not. However, since God is simply choosing not to excersize His ability to determine every choice, they believe that God is still supremely powerful and sovereign. ............................................... The interesting thing is that both perspectives claim that God is sovereign. Arminians generally understand that the Calvinist perspective, even if they disagree with it, leads to a belief in a soverign God. However, Calvinists generally are under the impression that Arminian perspective, even if they disagree with it, DOES NOT lead to a belief in a sovereign God. I propose that this impression is wrong, and I am asking that someone to explain, using scripture and reason, why Calvinists believe that. Not why they believe Arminianism is wrong, but why they believe that it is impossible for God to be sovereign in that perspective. ............................................... Thus far, I have found you to be a person who is well educated in the doctrines of Calvinism, with a firm grasp of scripture, and the rare ability to at least begin to understand Arminianism, even though you don’t agree with it. Therefore, I hope that if anyone would be able to answer this question, you might be the one to do it. Out of respect for some of my other colleagues here at the forum, I should mention that I there are others such as Reformer Joe who could fit this description. |
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4 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 61704 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, I've got a bit of time now so I will comment on your first state only for now "Calvinists have one perspective on interpreting scripture. They read verses to say that God has absolute control which He excersizes at all times to dictate everything that happens. They believe that within the box, people actually have FREEDOM to make choices, but that those choices are completely controlled by the ABILITIES that God grants. Thus, they believe that God is supremely powerful and sovereign. ......................................." By and large I agree with your statement above. But it would be best if I present the C position directly from our confession of faith. I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3] [1] EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. [2] JAM 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 1JO 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [3] ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. ACT 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. JOH 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. PRO 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord. I hope you read this statement carefully and took the time to consider the proof texts. We are fallible people and oft times we read into scripture what we think it should say rather than what it actually does say. I do not presume to teach you, my friend, but I say it as a reminder for both of us. If we are to come to a successfull resolution of this issue, it must be on the basis of Scripture alone. Take your time to consider the C position, that claims it's authority to speak by citing the texts listed above. Brother John |
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5 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61738 | ||
Simplification of Calvinist statement ..................................... Dear John, I’m fine with using the official statement, but would it be OK if I simplify it slightly for understanding sake. The original statement you gave was: “God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3] “ ..................................... I propose the following simplification: ..................................... “God unchangeably ordains everything that comes to pass. Yet neither is God the author of sin, nor is the will of the humans removed. Nor is the possibility of indirect causes of actions removed, but rather established.” ..................................... I have tried to change as little as possible while retaining the meaning and increasing the likelihood of understanding. Is this alright? ..................................... I read all your “proof texts”, and understand that you could easily come to the conclusion that you do based upon them. I am looking forward to your response to the rest of my previous post. |
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6 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 61740 | ||
Dear Sir Pent, Your interpretation is workable with one small alteration You said "nor is the will of the humans removed." I would use the term forced, or violated rather than "removed". Only because I think it a bit closer to the intended meaning of the Westminster divines. Thanks, John |
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7 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 61747 | ||
Definition of Calvinist perspective ..................... Dear John, Very well, for subsequent posts, I'll try to use the following definition for your perspective: .......................................... “God unchangeably ordains everything that comes to pass. Yet neither is God the author of sin, nor is the will of the humans forced. Nor is the possibility of indirect causes of actions removed, but rather established.” .......................................... So what are your thoughts on the rest of post 61691? |
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