Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62833 | ||
A Different View ......................................... Dear John, Thanks for clarifying your statement about why you believe that “allowing humans to have any impact in the universe contrary to the will of God would inevitably cause an imperfect final outcome”. I will try to do justice to your very thorough rationale. ......................................... You said that, “Perfection can be acheived only if all things involved are under the perfect control of the one who desires to reach that goal: Perfect in conception, design execution and fulfillment. The introduction of random, unpredictable or uncontrolable elements would result in a slight imperfection at best and at worst, chaos.” However, this is not logically correct. Have you ever played a game called NIM? It is a simple game played with 11 toothpicks. Each player alternates turns, taking away either 1, 2, or 3 toothpicks (whatever they choose). The player who takes away the last toothpick loses the game. Therefore the “perfect goal” is to not get stuck with the last toothpick. Now imagine you and I are playing a game of NIM, and I get to take the first turn. I take away 2 toothpicks, therfore 9 are left. Now you are completely FREE and ABLE to choose to remove 1, 2, or 3 toothpicks each turn until the end of the game, but the “perfect goal” is assured. Even though I am not in “perfect control” of your decisions, I will win this game no matter what you choose. ......................................... Now as for the “flaws” you found in the dollar store analogy. You said that for the analogy to work, we must assume that the parent, the child, and the clerk all desire the same end result. Thus causing problems if the child did not want to choose anything. First of all, I’ve never met a child who when given the option of having any one thing in a dollar store (loaded with toys), would decide they wanted nothing. However, this question is moot to begin with. The child has to pick something or they are not allowed to leave the store. Both Calvinists and Arminians would agree that God has set up the universe so that every person HAS to choose either to love God or reject Him. Not choosing is not an option in either viewpoint. ......................................... Then you say that the child would only be able to pick something bad like a machine gun. However, that point is also moot. Calvinist would agree, Arminians would disagree, but whether the child was only able to choose a machine gun or not, the point remains that when he checks out, it will still cost a dollar, and the parent’s final outcome will happen. ......................................... Finally, you end with a long quote from John Calvin. It seems in this quote that he is saying that God takes the decisions made by people who are enemies of God, and uses them to accomplish God’s own good purpose. Much like the verse where Joseph says to his brothers that though “you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good” (Gen 50:20). I don’t have a problem with that, and in fact, it even supports the point that I am trying to make. It shows that God could allow humans to have the ABILITY and FREEDOM to choose either way on an issue, and yet still control circumstances regardless of their choice to bring about God’s own final outcome. Thus God remains sovereign. |
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2 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62857 | ||
What about the rest ................................................. Dear John, I’m still curious about your thoughts on my overall point that God could allow choice within a framework while still being in control of the final outcome. What did you think of the NIM game example? What did you think of my interpretation that John Calvin was actually agreeing with me in the quote that you shared? |
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3 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 62931 | ||
Dear Sir P, I don't see how one can compare the decree of God to a parlour trick? Frankly, I am not familiar with the game. Is the one who chooses first assured of winning if he takes 2 toothpicks? If so his opponents freedom and ability are not real. The trickster is aware that the stooge's freedom and ability are non-existent. It's all a joke. The trickster's power is derived from his ability to decieve. I'm sure you do not require me to go further. I'm glad that you and Calvin agree that God is in absolute control of all things and that He is so without forcing or doing violence to the will of the creature. John |
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4 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62937 | ||
Clarification .............................................. Dear John, I obviously need to clarify a couple of points here. First of all, I did not say that I agreed with Calvin that God is in absolute control of all things. My actual quote was that “God could allow humans to have the ABILITY and FREEDOM to choose either way on an issue, and yet still control circumstances regardless of their choice to bring about God’s own final outcome.” There is an important distinction. I am saying that God does NOT control a person’s choices, but rather controls the overall situation so that regardless of their choice, God’s plan is accomplished. .............................................. As for the NIM game example, you said that because you can’t win the game that you don’t really have any choice. That is false. Just because you can’t choose to win doesn’t mean that you can’t make other choices. Within the rules of the game, you have the ABILITY and FREEDOM to choose to remove 1, 2, or 3, toothpicks each turn. This is a real choice. You can really remove 1, 2, or 3 toothpicks. The reality of that choice is not negated by the fact that any of your choices will not effect the outcome of the game. .............................................. Similarly, Arminians believe that God allows individuals to be ABLE to choose whether to love God or reject Him. However, regardless of what any one individual chooses, the overall plan of God will be accomplished. We know the end of the book. God wins the game. Heaven will be full of people who chose to love God. Hell will be full of people who chose to reject God. Everyone will be where they deserve to be, and God will be glorified. This is the perfect ending of the universe, and God is still sovereign. He is still in absolute control of the final outcome even though within the game we each can make our own choice. |
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5 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 62942 | ||
Sir P, " I am saying that God does NOT control a person’s choices, but rather controls the overall situation so that regardless of their choice, God’s plan is accomplished." John Calvin, Sir Pent and John Reformed all are in total agreement that God does not control a person's choices. HURRAH! A breakthrough. Those who He has chosen unto honor recieve new hearts and freely choose Christ. Those chosen for for destruction are left with stony hearts and freely choose death. We still have to address the issue oF "ability" however. (See Romans 9) John |
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6 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62947 | ||
Clarification continued ................................................... Dear John, Yes, we all SAY that everyone chooses freely. However, the point is that Arminians believe that everyone has the ABILITY to choose either way, and Calvinists don’t. This is not a breakthrough, we’ve been over that ground already. Let’s keep moving forward, not backward. My point there, was that Calvin was saying that God could use any circumstance to bring about His overall plan. This supports my proposal that God could allow people to have the ABILITY to choose either direction on an issue and yet God would still be sovereign. Anyway, what is your response to the rest of my post? ................................................... “As for the NIM game example, you said that because you can’t win the game that you don’t really have any choice. That is false. Just because you can’t choose to win doesn’t mean that you can’t make other choices. Within the rules of the game, you have the ABILITY and FREEDOM to choose to remove 1, 2, or 3, toothpicks each turn. This is a real choice. You can really remove 1, 2, or 3 toothpicks. The reality of that choice is not negated by the fact that any of your choices will not effect the outcome of the game. .............................................. Similarly, Arminians believe that God allows individuals to be ABLE to choose whether to love God or reject Him. However, regardless of what any one individual chooses, the overall plan of God will be accomplished. We know the end of the book. God wins the game. Heaven will be full of people who chose to love God. Hell will be full of people who chose to reject God. Everyone will be where they deserve to be, and God will be glorified. This is the perfect ending of the universe, and God is still sovereign. He is still in absolute control of the final outcome even though within the game we each can make our own choice.” |
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7 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 62955 | ||
Sir Pent, Everyone will be where they deserve to be? We all deserve to be in Hell! If I, by some act of my own such as choosing to be saved, deserve Heaven then I have earned a right to be there. You have inadvertly hit the nail smack dab on the head! God does 99.9 percent of the work of salvation, but all to no avail, UNLESS I contribute my all important .01 percent by accepting His offer. And if I'm good enough or smart enough to decide for Heaven, by golly, I deserve it! I realize you do not look at salvation this way, but it is the inevitable result of a homo-centric theology. The spot light is on man. Will he accept God's offer or will he reject it. It is all in his hands. John |
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8 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62960 | ||
Clarification .............................................. Dear John, Are you trying to be evasive and dodge resonding to the point that I make in my posts, or do you just happen to be ignoring them and continuing to suggest sidelines? We’re not talking about what people deserve. That is a whole other issue within the Calvinism and Arminian debate. Let’s not go there. Please stay on topic and respond to the points that I made in my post. .............................................. “As for the NIM game example, you said that because you can’t win the game that you don’t really have any choice. That is false. Just because you can’t choose to win doesn’t mean that you can’t make other choices. Within the rules of the game, you have the ABILITY and FREEDOM to choose to remove 1, 2, or 3, toothpicks each turn. This is a real choice. You can really remove 1, 2, or 3 toothpicks. The reality of that choice is not negated by the fact that any of your choices will not effect the outcome of the game. .............................................. Similarly, Arminians believe that God allows individuals to be ABLE to choose whether to love God or reject Him. However, regardless of what any one individual chooses, the overall plan of God will be accomplished. We know the end of the book. God wins the game. Heaven will be full of people who chose to love God. Hell will be full of people who chose to reject God. Everyone will be where they deserve to be, and God will be glorified. This is the perfect ending of the universe, and God is still sovereign. He is still in absolute control of the final outcome even though within the game we each can make our own choice.” |
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9 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 62995 | ||
Sir Pent, It's not possible for me to address every topic of yours each time I respond. I do have constraints on my time, and though I have the freedom, I do not always have the ability to answer in such a way as to satisfy all your demands. I am sorry if you have been led to believe that I have been deliberately avoiding and evading your questions. The Tom and Jerry analogy I found to be quite an offensive one, and I could not (initialy) address it's original form. The NIM example is still unclear to me because (as I said) it is a game I am unfamiliar with and I am still unsure if it is a parlour trick or a legitimate contest. What you have percieved as evasion have actually been attempts to lay grounwork for my eventual answer. Perhaps my comminication skills are not what they should be. If so, you have my apology. In any event, I have answered your twins questions. If you wish, I would happy to expand upon my answers or turn to another area of concern, whichever you suggest. Let's not go sour on one another though, but extend the benefit of the doubt, bearing in mind the profundity of the subject matter. Your Brother, John |
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