Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62833 | ||
A Different View ......................................... Dear John, Thanks for clarifying your statement about why you believe that “allowing humans to have any impact in the universe contrary to the will of God would inevitably cause an imperfect final outcome”. I will try to do justice to your very thorough rationale. ......................................... You said that, “Perfection can be acheived only if all things involved are under the perfect control of the one who desires to reach that goal: Perfect in conception, design execution and fulfillment. The introduction of random, unpredictable or uncontrolable elements would result in a slight imperfection at best and at worst, chaos.” However, this is not logically correct. Have you ever played a game called NIM? It is a simple game played with 11 toothpicks. Each player alternates turns, taking away either 1, 2, or 3 toothpicks (whatever they choose). The player who takes away the last toothpick loses the game. Therefore the “perfect goal” is to not get stuck with the last toothpick. Now imagine you and I are playing a game of NIM, and I get to take the first turn. I take away 2 toothpicks, therfore 9 are left. Now you are completely FREE and ABLE to choose to remove 1, 2, or 3 toothpicks each turn until the end of the game, but the “perfect goal” is assured. Even though I am not in “perfect control” of your decisions, I will win this game no matter what you choose. ......................................... Now as for the “flaws” you found in the dollar store analogy. You said that for the analogy to work, we must assume that the parent, the child, and the clerk all desire the same end result. Thus causing problems if the child did not want to choose anything. First of all, I’ve never met a child who when given the option of having any one thing in a dollar store (loaded with toys), would decide they wanted nothing. However, this question is moot to begin with. The child has to pick something or they are not allowed to leave the store. Both Calvinists and Arminians would agree that God has set up the universe so that every person HAS to choose either to love God or reject Him. Not choosing is not an option in either viewpoint. ......................................... Then you say that the child would only be able to pick something bad like a machine gun. However, that point is also moot. Calvinist would agree, Arminians would disagree, but whether the child was only able to choose a machine gun or not, the point remains that when he checks out, it will still cost a dollar, and the parent’s final outcome will happen. ......................................... Finally, you end with a long quote from John Calvin. It seems in this quote that he is saying that God takes the decisions made by people who are enemies of God, and uses them to accomplish God’s own good purpose. Much like the verse where Joseph says to his brothers that though “you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good” (Gen 50:20). I don’t have a problem with that, and in fact, it even supports the point that I am trying to make. It shows that God could allow humans to have the ABILITY and FREEDOM to choose either way on an issue, and yet still control circumstances regardless of their choice to bring about God’s own final outcome. Thus God remains sovereign. |
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2 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | John Reformed | 62842 | ||
Dear Sir pent, you stated:"Both Calvinists and Arminians would agree that God has set up the universe so that every person HAS to choose either to love God or reject Him. Not choosing is not an option in either viewpoint. ........................................." Not so. Many people die in infancy or early childhood. Others suffer grave mental or physical handicaps that also cannot choose one way or the other. And what of the millions and millions that have perished before and after the Incarnation who have never even heard the name Jesus Christ? The only way to the Father is through the Son. What of these people. Yes they like allothers have the light of nature to display the evidence of the existence of God. And they also hace the law of God writen on their hearts. The Law does not save! The mere acknowledgement of the existence of a Supreme Being does not save! It is the good news of Jesus Christ that has that power to save. The Gospel and the Gospel alone. Islam is monotheist but to no advantage regarding salvation. Gotta Go, John |
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3 | Is God in absolut contrl over all things | Acts 4:24 | Sir Pent | 62854 | ||
You make a good point ................................................. Dear John, Part of any truly good discussion is not only sharing what you think, and listening to what the other person thinks, but also being willing to admit when you are wrong. In your last post, you pointed out an error that I had made. I had said that everyone agrees that all humans have to choose to love God or reject Him. That statement was wrong. It is an oversimplification of the situation. You are correct that there are some exceptions to the general rule (ie. babies that die before birth, tribes that never hear the gospel, the people who lived and died before Christ’s sacrifice for us). You are also correct that there are different beliefs about these abnormal situations. I was wrong on that point. ................................................. That being said, rather than getting side tracked on these unusual situations (which are talked about in other threads on this forum), I would request that we focus our discussion to talk about the vast majority of people in the world today, who have been born, have reached an age that they can make rational decisions, and have been exposed to Christianity to at least some degree. I would like to talk about people like you, me, and anyone else who would read this thread. Would it be possible for God to allow us to have the ABILITY and the FREEDOM to choose to love or reject Him, yet still remain sovereign? |
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