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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | zach† | 35059 | ||
charis; Following your questions you sent me in your last response: "So...'Once lost, always lost?'" My answer is yes (see Heb. 6:4-6 NASB) "This would definitely lead back to a question I asked in another thread, "How easy is it to lose your salvation?" As to how hard or how easy it is to loose salvation, scripture to my knowledge only talks about the possibility of losing it. However I'm sure it may differ from one individual to another. "My friend, I have been reading the 'salvation maintenance' posts, and just cannot accept that way of thinking." Thats fine my friend. I'm not trying to win any converts to my particular interpretation of scripture. I merely desire to discuss the various topics with other believers such as yourself. "From what I have heard, we chose to accept Christ on our own initiative, then we must maintain a standard of excellence and perfect repentance in order keep that relationship, and now, we cannot stumble or we lose our salvation, never able to find Christ again. WOW!" Well that is not exactly what I stated in any of my posts, but I can see how it might be possible for us to misunderstand each other. After all we both read the same Bible(s) allowing for different versions. But we all get a different interpretations from the same book. Let me add three quick questions: Are unilateral relationships something that must be maintained? Are they something that requires some effort on the parties involved in that relationship to keep it going? Is a persons involvement in any relationship passive? Scripture as I'm sure you will agree is never in error, rather our understanding is often in error and in need of correcting. Thank you my friend for the response. In Christ zach† |
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2 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | Morant61 | 35142 | ||
Greetings Zach† Your comments on Heb. 6:4-6 reminded me of the post that I tried to post the other day, but lost. Let me give you the sort version. The usual approach to Heb. 6:4-6 is to either say that it can't happen or to say that once it does happen, it can't be undone. However, I found some interesting information the other day. The two participles in verse 6 could be either causual or temporal. If they are causual, then Heb. 6:6 is saying that those who haven fallen away cannot be renewed to repentance BECAUSE they have crucified Christ to themselves and are making a public spectacle of Him. However, they could very well be temporal. In this case, Heb. 6:6 would be saying that those who have fallen away cannot be renewed to repentance WHILE they are crucifing Christ to themselves and are making a public spectacle of Him. Of the two, I prefer the temporal view for several reasons. First of all, the participles are all in the present tense. It makes more sense to take this tense as a temporal, rather than a causual - though this is not impossible either. I would expect an aorist tense if a causual meaning were being expressed - point of action. Secondly, I would not expect the comma (which is in the Greek text) after 'repentance' and before the two participles if they were intended to be causual. The comma seperates them into a seperate clause. This is interesting though because the inability to be brought back to repentance would then only apply during the action expressed by the two participles. If the action were to cease, then the inability would no longer be in effect. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | zach† | 35144 | ||
Brother Tim; Thank you for the information; This discussion will hopefully help both me and others come to a correct understanding of this text. Last night I was just reviewing a book by Robert Shank entitled "Life in the Son" Here is a review of Mr. Shanks book I found on the web. This is probably the greatest book ever written against the doctrine of Calvinistic perseverance. 41 years ago Dr. Robert Shank destroyed the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance/eternal security, arguing from the Greek text. No Calvinist has dared to refute him, but all continue to philosophize, theologize-empty of objective facts from the Greek text on the real issues. June 19, 1959, Professor William W. Adams of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote the Introduction to Shanks work, saying: "If Mr. Shank is right in his interpretation and thesis, it is of the utmost importance for time and eternity that we come to understand his understanding of the Scriptures. If he is wrong, it remains for us to refute his thesis..." [bold print added]. And it still remains...the Christian world is still waiting for the Calvinist to affirm his position grounded in the Greek text of the New Testament. And here is an actual comment found on the back cover of Shank's book: "Internationally known among Bible scholars for his significant books in the field of biblical theology, Dr. Robert Shank here offers a penetrating study of all the pertinent New Testament Scriptures on the doctrine of perseverance. In doing so, he calls into question the popular doctrine of "eternal [unconditional] security." Are the proof passages used to support eternal security possibly misconstrued? Dr. Shank convincingly argues that the question confronting us is not, Is the believer secure? but rather, What does it mean to be a believer? If apostasy is an actual peril for every Christian, the Scriptural warning passages must be frankly accepted rather than interpreted into irrelevance or circumvented by theological hypothesis." Brother Tim have you ever read this book? I may order a used copy from Amazon for 6 dollars to add to my library. Also have you ever heard of Dan Corner? He has a web site at .... http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/ and he has wriiten a book entitled: "The Believers Conditional Security" In Christ zach† |
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4 | O.T. Israel salvation? | John 6:49 | Morant61 | 35223 | ||
Greetings Zach† I have both Robert Shank's "Life in the Son" and "Elect in the Son" and I would highly recommend them both. :) I haven't heard of Dan Corner! I'll try to check out His web site. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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