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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Enoch and Elijah didn't see God yet? | John 3:13 | EdB | 232475 | ||
Part 3 of 3 parts Enoch’s translation But what about his translation in Hebrews 11:5? Does that mean he didn’t die? That’s what most people carelessly assume without proof. The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead, it says he "was not found." According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." Nowhere in the Scripture does ‘translate’ mean to make immortal! The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was ‘translated’ or ‘transported’ to Sychem, where he was buried! The Scriptures say Jacob was translated to the place of burial! God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found, just as he did with the body of Moses in Deuteronomy 34:6. No man knows where Moses' or Enoch’s grave is. God hid them for reasons known only to Him. Notice another proof that ‘translate’ does not mean to make immortal. Paul wrote that the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Colossians 1:13). The apostle Paul says that he was already translated, even though he was still physically alive! Although he was once part of the darkness of this world, he was translated, removed from darkness, into the light of the kingdom of God while he was physically alive! At the age of 65, Enoch had a son named Methuselah. But how long did Enoch walk with God? Genesis 5:22, "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters." So, Enoch followed God’s ways for three hundred years. Notice that the Scripture does not record that Enoch is still walking with God. It says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years, and not one year more. Why? Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" (Genesis 5:23). Paul says, in Colossians 1:10, "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord." Enoch walked with God and pleased God. This is what Genesis 5:22,24 means when it says "Enoch walked with God." 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 says that all die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly have preceded him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52. http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html |
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2 | Enoch and Elijah didn't see God yet? | John 3:13 | BradK | 232479 | ||
Hi EdB, Good to hear from you my friend. Here's some observations from my own studies of this passage. (limited for time's sake). Notwithstanding what ecclesia.org/truth/enoch says about this passage I'd have to take issue on a few points. 1. Why would it be careless to assume without proof he (Enoch) didn't die? The text itself says he didn't- Heb 11:5, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God." (NASB) Would we not understand this to mean exactly what it says? Granted the passage here in Hebrews doesn't say he went to heaven, but it does certainly say "he should not see death"! I believe when he explains that "God took him", and "he was not found", it clearly means that Enoch did "NOT SEE DEATH" at all, but that he was taken bodily from the earth. As Bullinger notes in his tremendous exposition, "Great Cloud of Witnesses", "Of each of the six patriarchs before him, it is recorded "and he died" (Gen. 5:5; 8; 11; 14; 17; 20). but of Enoch it is written, that he did "not see death" and the reason given is that "God, took him," and "he was not found". This implies that men looked everywhere for him but the search parties could not find him dead or alive." [Pg 96] Regarding his translation. Gen. 5:24 simply notes, "...and he was not, for God took him." We're not provided any further detail. However, Hebrews 11:5, does note "God took him up", the verb 'metathemi' meaning "to effect a change of location in space, with the implication that the two locations are significantly different—‘to move from one place to another, to change one’s location, to depart, departure." [Louw, J. P., and Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament] Agreed, there's no sense of making any one immortal from 'metathemi', but that misses the point. The context of the passage clearly says he did not see death! 2. The word "translated" [metathemi] in Heb 11:5, differs in both meaning and sense from that of "ascended", [anabaino] in John 3:13. Again, effect(ing) a change of location in space, with the implication that the two locations are significantly different does no violation to what is stated in John 3:13. Metathemi simply describes the action that, "By faith he was taken up so that he would not see death". Significantly, the verb here is also in the passive mood, which shows (indicates) the action was performed on him (Enoch) by an outside force. He didn't do this himself! However, "ascended" [anabaino] in John 3:13 is a completely different action. Here it conveys the meaning 'to move up—‘to come up, to go up, to ascend.’ The upward movement may be of almost any gradient, for example, in going up a road to Jerusalem (Gal. 1:17) or in going up into a tree (Lk 19:4) or in ascending into heaven (Acts 2:34).' The verb is in the active sense, denoting action performed by the individual himself. So, Enoch, though definitely "translated", did not "ascend" to heaven. A significant, but important distinction I believe. 3. I don't find any biblical (or textual) support for stating "God took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found,". Translation does not entail he was in any way, shape or sense of the term, buried. Simply because Jacob was translated (and the term fits well in Acts 7:16 as he was moved from one place to another) does not imply that such was the case for Enoch! Speaking the aTruth in Love, BradK |
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3 | Enoch and Elijah didn't see God yet? | John 3:13 | EdB | 232480 | ||
I think the article I quoted addresses your objection very well and I don't see any purpose in rehashing what was said. I would like to add that Hebrews 11:13 (NASB) 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. States ALL which in context would include all the patriarchs previously mentioned including Enoch have died in faith. So somewhere in some time frame Enoch did die. Also Gen 5:23 says Enoch's days were 365 years. It doesn't say 365 on earth and immortal in heaven or even suggests that. While I can understand your objections please re- read the quoted article and see if they don't fully answer (as much as can be answered) them for you. I think they do. |
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4 | Enoch and Elijah didn't see God yet? | John 3:13 | BMyers | 232497 | ||
I find you use of Gen 5:23 interesting. If you note, every other person listed in chapter 5 states that the individual died, with the the exceptation of Enoch. Hebrews 11:5 very clearly states that Enoch did not die. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. (Hebrews 11:5 ESV) Brad |
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5 | Enoch and Elijah didn't see God yet? | John 3:13 | EdB | 232498 | ||
Genesis 5:21-24 (NASB) 21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. 22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. Hebrews 11:5 (NASB) 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. Hebrews 11:13 (NASB) 13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. John 3:12-13 (NASB) 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. What does Genesis passage really say? Only that Enoch was not for God took him. Took him where? It does not say. Does it say he never died? No I believe what Gen 5:23 is saying is Enoch didn't die at that time. What does the Hebrew 11:5 passage say? That God took up Enoch so he would not see death. It doesn’t say where God took him up or for how long only that Enoch was taken up so he didn’t die. However the Hebrews 11:13 passage does say ALL of those fore mentioned did eventually die. If we let our understanding of Genesis 5:23 and Hebrew 11:5 mean that Enoch didn’t die and was taken up to God then we have built a contradiction with what our Lord said in John 3:13. That is our choice reexamine our interpretation of Scripture in referrence to these two passages or say YES scripture does contradict itself. So is there a contradiction in scripture or could it be we have interpreted Gen 2:23 and Hebrew 11:5 to mean something they really never said and excluded Enoch from the ALL of Hebrews 11:13? |
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