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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Makarios | 34203 | ||
Greetings, Barry! Thank you for your interesting insight! However, I'm not quite sure if I can see where Jesus differentiates in Matthew 24 between two 'separate' comings. Do you believe in a "Second Coming", and then a "Third Coming"? I'm not sure if I see what you mean when you say that Matthew 24 is describing 'two' comings. Also, if you do say that there are 'two' separate comings, do you have some Scriptural support? I do not quite agree with what you have stated about the Rapture, but I'm open to hearing what you have to say. I'm not quite sure of how "those who will be left behind" are those who will be raptured, since 1 Thess. 4:17 is speaking of how we are 'caught up', and 'caught up' and 'taken' (in Matthew 24) are very close in meaning. I believe that the church will be 'caught up' and 'taken' away, leaving those who will suffer God's wrath to be left behind. In my opinion, Matthew 24, Rev. 8, and Rev. 16:9 are clearly speaking of the wrath that God is going to pour out onto the world, against those who have rejected Him and have blasphemed His name. Despite all of this wrath, those who are left on earth will still continue to blaspheme God (Rev. 16:11). You have mentioned Acts 1:11.. What is important about this verse is not the number of people who saw him ascend, but it is the method by which He ascended into heaven. This verse clearly shows us that that is the "thing" that will be exactly the same when He makes His Second Return. The amount of people that saw Him ascend is trivial. It didn't matter if the whole world saw Him ascend or not- it was/is the duty of His disciples to tell the world of how to look for Him (Matthew 28:19). However, I agree with you that the whole world will see Him in His glorious Second Coming! About Rev. 3:10... The Lord clearly states that those who are His ([believers] the church) will not endure His punishment that He will bring upon the world. However, this verse does not say that believers are exempt from witnessing and experiencing the wrath of Satan, in which the Antichrist will come to power. Obviously, believers in Christ are not spared from every temptation or test of Satan, since Christians are tested by Satan every single day. However, if we prove ourselves as faithful to the Lord during the persecution of Satan, and refuse to bow down to Antichrist or his images, then the Lord will protect us from His wrath. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 2 Peter 5:9 also agree that the Lord will protect us entirely, so that we will not be present here, during His wrath, but He does not assure us that we will be entirely spared from the wrath of Satan. We must not forget that we shall prove ourselves as "overcomers"! (Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21) Overcomers of what?? Overcomers of Satan's wrath and persecution! :-) "Who is on the earth for Satan to deceive.." you ask? Micah 7:17 says that there will be a remnant of Gentile nations that will survive the wrath of God, who "will come trembling out of their fortresses; to the Lord our God they will come in dread, and they will be afraid before Him". Those who, in addition to surviving God's wrath, survive Christ's judgment of the nations (Matt. 25:31, 32; cf. Rev. 20:4), will become the remnant of the non-Jewish nations that go into the millennial kingdom. They will be the very same people who Christ and we, the redeemed, will 'rule' over, and they will be the same who will be deceived by Satan after he is let loose at the conclusion of the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ. I hope that I have explained my view a little more clearly! Blessings to you, Makarios |
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2 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Hecameforu | 34248 | ||
Brother Markarios, You have explained your view just fine. First I must apologize if I didn't represent my view well. You said "I'm not quite sure of how "those who will be left behind" are those who will be raptured". What I meant by "left behind" is as it states in 1 Thes 4:16-17"and the dead in christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”. Basically, the Church. Again I didn't explain myself well with Acts 1:11. You're absolutely right, it's not how many people were there to see him ascend, it's the fact that he was taken up in a cloud, very quietly, with only believers seeing him and this is how I believe the Rapture will be, as he states in Matthew 24:37,39. My main point here sir is this: Matthew 24:30 states of Jesus coming in Power and Great Glory. He says that all the tribes on the earth mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven. Now, in verse 31 he sends his angels to gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to another. This is way different than the son of man coming like a thief in the night, in the twinkling of an eye. Do you see the difference between the coming of our Lord in Verse 30 and the way the lord describes it in verses 37,39. This is not a discrepancy, but the “Rapture” and then the coming in Power and Great Glory. You said: “since 1 Thess. 4:17 is speaking of how we are 'caught up', and 'caught up' and 'taken' (in Matthew 24) are very close in meaning. I believe that the church will be 'caught up' and 'taken' away, leaving those who will suffer God's wrath to be left behind.” Exactly Marcarios, the church will be caught up leaving those behind to suffer the wrath in the tribulation. Then after the tribulation is the coming in Power and Great Glory, the gathering of the elect and those all across heaven, chaining and throwing Satan into the bottomless pit, reigning with Jesus for a thousand years…. etc, etc. Overcomers of what?? We have to overcome every day, as you well know. There are also Christians in the world these days that are killed for their beliefs and I'm sure it's going to get worse. Sorry but my question "Who is on the earth for Satan to deceive” was somewhat rhetorical but thank you for you answer. A few other points if I may: Rev 4:1-2 is after the church age and before the tribulation. The location of this event is right for the Rapture, a representation of the Church in Heaven. Chapters 2 and 3 deal with the seven successive periods of church history. Chapters 4 and 5 present a vision in heaven and chapter 6 introduces the Tribulation Period. Another point I would like to make is the fact that the “Church’ is referred to 16 times in the first 3 chapters of Revelation whereas chapters 6 through 18, which cover the tribulation, do not mention the Church once. The natural conclusion drawn from this is that the Church will be absent from the events of the Tribulation. The rapture of the Church is not explicitly taught in Revelation 4 but definitely appears here chronologically at the end of the Church age and before the Tribulation. I’m sure we agree that Revelation is in chronological order. Thanks for the discussion. I await your thoughts if you are so inlcined Have a great night Barry |
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3 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | CDBJ | 34261 | ||
You said that Christ will come very quietly in your third paragraph. This will be the most spectacular event to ever take place in the history of the World and you think that God will sneak us out of here with out any fanfare? I am more inclined to believe what it says in the Book of Revelation about the removal of the believers. Look at everything that takes place before Rev. 7:9 the very first words of verse 9 is (after this). Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; This is the whole body of Christ right after the rapture and if you assume that it is only a few that were saved during the tribulation, where is the church? This a very great gathering since (all) the angels were there, the elders were there, and the four beast were there but according to what you are trying to say, supposing that that church was rapture earlier, they weren't invited, I DON'T THINK SO! You say that you believe that the book of Revelation is chronological, I don't believe it is any different then the rest of the way that Christ use to teach. Jesus would tell his disciples something then he would explain it to them; Rev. is taught to us the same way. CDBJ |
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4 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Hecameforu | 34457 | ||
Nice to see you CDBJ, It's been too long since I've read your pleasant words. :) First of all my brother, "a thief in the night" are the words of our Lord, not mine. I used "quiet", you used "sneak". Now isn't that what a thief in the night does, he sneaks in, takes what he wants and sneaks out? If this is not what a thief does then I'm mistaken and stand corrected. If a thief comes into your home at night and steals your wife’s diamonds, you wouldn't know it until your wife went to put her diamonds on. Well that’s what’s going to happen during the rapture. People will not know until it's too late. A thief does not come in power and great glory. Our Lord says “then they will see the son of man coming on the clouds with power and great glory”…….. “coming”, which means being seen from a distance as he comes to earth on the clouds with power and great glory. You don’t see a thief wen he comes in the night. A thief does not broadcast his actions. Also notice the word “they”. Jesus says “they will see”, not you will see, or you will all see, because the Church will no longer be there. I did not say that Jesus wasn't coming in Power and Great Glory. Indeed he is, but I maintain after the tribulation which is after the “rapture” when the Church is caught up in the clouds. There’s also a big difference between the words “caught”, “taken” and the word “gather”. Caught and taken are similar though. Caught: I Thess. 4:17 harpazô; from a prim. root harp-; to seize, catch up, snatch away:--carry off, snatch, snatched...away, snatches, snatches away, snatching, take...away...by force, take...by force. Taken: Matthew 24: 40-41 and many others paralambanô; to receive from:--receive, received, take, taken, takes, takes along, taking, took, took...along, took...aside, took along. Gather: Matthew 24:31, Ephesians 1:10 among others episunagô; to gather together:--gather...together, gather together, gathered, gathered together, gathers These are two separate moments. The Church is caught up or taken during the rapture and the elect and all in heaven are gathered together during our Lord’s glorious coming in Power and Great Glory. I’m sorry if you can’t see the difference between the two. I’m sorry if you can’t see what I’m trying to relate. I did not say that there were only a few that were saved during the tribulation. I did not say that the church was “not invited”, as you put it. The Church, when raptured is to be forever with the Lord as it says in 1 Thes. 4:17 It is not my contention to sway you or to argue with you but to present my view to the best of my ability. I was not anticipating a discussion of the Book of Revelation, just merely making note of the distinction between the Rapture and our Lord’s coming in Power and Great Glory. I hadn’t brought up this passage before but seeing as how you did, let’s take a quick look at it Rev 7:9 is, as you put it; "the whole body of Christ right after the rapture"? Well Jesus did say that no one knows the day, or the hour except the father, but you seem to have it pinpointed down to right after the sixth seal. That’s some divine revelation you’ve been given there brother :-) Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” This is where Rev 7:9 comes in. Well I certainly don’t profess to understand all the Bible and I’m always open to different views. Part 2 is next but not as long |
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5 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | CDBJ | 34468 | ||
I agree with you 100 percent about the thief but the problem is that Christ isn't going to come like a thief for the believers, at least the way I read it. 1 Thes. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. The valuables that are going to be taken are His elect and as soon as we are removed God is going to clobber those that are left, and it will be right after the great tribulation. The great tribulation is caused by the wrath of the Antichrist not the Lord. Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. The short time is the last three and a half years. Jesus said that the tribulation will be cut short for the elects sake so that puts believers in that period. God has promised that his elect will not suffer His wrath and since there are believers on earth during the great tribulation that means that God is not metering out the wrath the adversary is. But the promise was given to all those believers that endure the tribulation till the end then they will be delivered. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That's the rapture, Jesus will deal out punishment to those that have been troubling His elect. The rapture and retaliation is all going to happen on the same day. 2 Thes. 1:6-12 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. God will deal out fire to those who trouble his elect and he is going to do it on the same day that he come to be glorified in his saints. It will be like it was in the days on Noah, the believers were sealed up then wham. Lot shows us the same example it happened so fast that Lot almost got his shirttail burnt on the way out. Check it out it all ties together. CDBJ |
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