Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Eugean | 34119 | ||
During the flood those that were taken were lost, the ones that were left were saved. If this is the Second Coming of Christ, the ones that are taken are are saved and the ones that are left are lost? | ||||||
2 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Makarios | 34137 | ||
Greetings Eugean! If we read 2 Peter 2:5-7,9, it reads as such in the English Standard Version... "if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked ... then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment," "Peter simply repeats what he had been taught by his Lord- the truth that when Christ returns, He will come to simultaneously rescue His saints and destroy the wicked." (1) "..the illustration of Noah's rescue before the world was destroyed by water is the illustration used to describe the back-to-back timing of the Rapture of the church and the judgment of God. Not only does Peter use it in the passage quoted just above, but Christ used the same illustration when He explained to His disciples that both events will occur on the same day (Luke 17). When He delivered His Olivet Discourse- just a few days before His crucifixion- He used the same illustration once again. Yet some, in order to preserve a system unsupported by Scripture, must again somehow distort the clear intent of Christ's illustration, making it applicable to the Battle of Armageddon instead of the Rapture of the church, claiming that the one "taken" is taken to judgment and the one "left" is left behind to enter into the millennial Kingdom of Christ. In response to this position, we need only to look carefully at the illustration itself, in particular the very words of Christ. In response to the disciples' question "What will be the sign of your coming?" Christ illustrates His teaching concerning His "coming" and the wrath it will initiate, by again giving His disciples the example of Noah and the Flood." (1) "As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ... and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left." (Matthew 24:37,39-41 [ESV]; cf. Luke 17:34-36). "When the one is "taken," the other is "left." The meaning of this passage in this context clearly is that those who are "taken" are taken to be with the Lord when He comes to rescue His faithful church (see 1 Thess. 4:15). Those that are "left," will be the wicked who remain after the elect are taken, left to face the wrath of God's judgment "like [in] the days of Noah." This is exactly as Peter understood it ... when the godly are "rescued" and the unrighteous are left for "punishment" (2 Peter 2:5-7,9)." "This is confirmed further when we look at the Greek term translated as "taken." In both instances the word "taken" is paralambano, which means to "receive near, that is, to associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation)." Christ uses the term only six times in reference to future events. He uses it twice in Matthew 24:40, 41 and three times in Luke 17:34-36, in each instance referring to one person being taken and another being left behind. The other time Christ uses this particular word is in the beautiful promise to His followers that... "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive [paralambano] you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also" (John 14:2,3 [NASB, 1977])." (1) "In light of the meaning of paralambano as found in John 14, we see that in these verses from Luke and Matthew, "taken" carries the sense of "being received"- that is, of being received by Christ, as in the case of John 14:2,3." (1) "Thus, as in the days of Noah, God will destroy those who are "left" during His fiery Day-of-the-Lord judgment of the world, "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God" (2 Thess. 1:7,8)." (1) Blessings to you, Makarios Source: (1) "The Sign", 2000, Crossway Books, Robert Van Kampen, pages 311-313. |
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3 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Hecameforu | 34193 | ||
Hello Markarios, Very interesting excerpts taken from that book. Jesus is talking about 2 separate comings in Matthew 24. One that comes in Power and Great Glory is not one that comes as a thief. Jesus is going to come as a thief in the night. Now when a thief comes in the night; he comes, he takes what he wants and he's gone, and nobody knows it. This is how the rapture will be. Jesus will raise the dead and we that are left behind will be caught up with him in the clouds. 1Thes. 4:17 "Caught up" is a Greek translation of the Greek word, which literally means to seize as a robber seizes a prize. The Latin word, from which we get he word "rapture", is raptus, meaning to seize by force. Thus we have as the meaning of rapture that one day, Christ is coming to rob the world of his jewels (or his redeemed ones) to take them into heaven with them. Another interesting thing Jesus said was that it will be as in the days of Noah. Matthew 24: 37) But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Now in those days they were partying, without a care in the world. This is not going to be the case during the tribulation my friend. Rev. Chapter 8 7) Hail and fire……1/3 part of the trees and all the grass is burnt up. 8-9) 1/3 part of the creatures in the sea die, and 1/3 part of the ships are destroyed. 10-11) Many men die because the waters are made bitter because of a star slamming into the rivers 12) 1/3 part of the sun and moon and stars were darkened 13) and I quote “ Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabiters of the earth And on and on it goes….. Rev Chapter 16:9 The pouring out of the vials. “And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.” This sure doesn’t sound like giving to marriage and drinking. Acts 1:11 …"Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." The whole world did not see Jesus taken up into a cloud, as we will be when he comes back for us. The whole world will see Jesus coming back in Power and Great Glory. Rev 3:10 clearly states that the Lord will spare his church from the hour of temptation to test those who dwell on the earth. Those who dwell on the earth, or earth dwellers are those who have no interest in Heaven. The church is not of this world. 1 Thes 1:10 “and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come”. We are already delivered from hell and death and this is not what it says. “Rescues” is something that hasn’t happened yet but will. 2 Peter 5:9 “then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the Day of Judgment”, You wrote, “"Peter simply repeats what he had been taught by his Lord- the truth that when Christ returns, He will come to simultaneously rescue His saints and destroy the wicked." Let’s not forget the 1000-year reign of our Lord while Satan is in the bottomless pit. If the wicked is simultaneously destroyed then who is on the earth to Judge and reign over during the 1000-year reign? Who is on the earth for Satan to deceive for a season when he is loosed from the bottomless pit? This my friend, is my humble view Love in Christ Barry |
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4 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Makarios | 34203 | ||
Greetings, Barry! Thank you for your interesting insight! However, I'm not quite sure if I can see where Jesus differentiates in Matthew 24 between two 'separate' comings. Do you believe in a "Second Coming", and then a "Third Coming"? I'm not sure if I see what you mean when you say that Matthew 24 is describing 'two' comings. Also, if you do say that there are 'two' separate comings, do you have some Scriptural support? I do not quite agree with what you have stated about the Rapture, but I'm open to hearing what you have to say. I'm not quite sure of how "those who will be left behind" are those who will be raptured, since 1 Thess. 4:17 is speaking of how we are 'caught up', and 'caught up' and 'taken' (in Matthew 24) are very close in meaning. I believe that the church will be 'caught up' and 'taken' away, leaving those who will suffer God's wrath to be left behind. In my opinion, Matthew 24, Rev. 8, and Rev. 16:9 are clearly speaking of the wrath that God is going to pour out onto the world, against those who have rejected Him and have blasphemed His name. Despite all of this wrath, those who are left on earth will still continue to blaspheme God (Rev. 16:11). You have mentioned Acts 1:11.. What is important about this verse is not the number of people who saw him ascend, but it is the method by which He ascended into heaven. This verse clearly shows us that that is the "thing" that will be exactly the same when He makes His Second Return. The amount of people that saw Him ascend is trivial. It didn't matter if the whole world saw Him ascend or not- it was/is the duty of His disciples to tell the world of how to look for Him (Matthew 28:19). However, I agree with you that the whole world will see Him in His glorious Second Coming! About Rev. 3:10... The Lord clearly states that those who are His ([believers] the church) will not endure His punishment that He will bring upon the world. However, this verse does not say that believers are exempt from witnessing and experiencing the wrath of Satan, in which the Antichrist will come to power. Obviously, believers in Christ are not spared from every temptation or test of Satan, since Christians are tested by Satan every single day. However, if we prove ourselves as faithful to the Lord during the persecution of Satan, and refuse to bow down to Antichrist or his images, then the Lord will protect us from His wrath. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 2 Peter 5:9 also agree that the Lord will protect us entirely, so that we will not be present here, during His wrath, but He does not assure us that we will be entirely spared from the wrath of Satan. We must not forget that we shall prove ourselves as "overcomers"! (Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26, 3:5, 3:12, 3:21) Overcomers of what?? Overcomers of Satan's wrath and persecution! :-) "Who is on the earth for Satan to deceive.." you ask? Micah 7:17 says that there will be a remnant of Gentile nations that will survive the wrath of God, who "will come trembling out of their fortresses; to the Lord our God they will come in dread, and they will be afraid before Him". Those who, in addition to surviving God's wrath, survive Christ's judgment of the nations (Matt. 25:31, 32; cf. Rev. 20:4), will become the remnant of the non-Jewish nations that go into the millennial kingdom. They will be the very same people who Christ and we, the redeemed, will 'rule' over, and they will be the same who will be deceived by Satan after he is let loose at the conclusion of the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ. I hope that I have explained my view a little more clearly! Blessings to you, Makarios |
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5 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Hecameforu | 34248 | ||
Brother Markarios, You have explained your view just fine. First I must apologize if I didn't represent my view well. You said "I'm not quite sure of how "those who will be left behind" are those who will be raptured". What I meant by "left behind" is as it states in 1 Thes 4:16-17"and the dead in christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds”. Basically, the Church. Again I didn't explain myself well with Acts 1:11. You're absolutely right, it's not how many people were there to see him ascend, it's the fact that he was taken up in a cloud, very quietly, with only believers seeing him and this is how I believe the Rapture will be, as he states in Matthew 24:37,39. My main point here sir is this: Matthew 24:30 states of Jesus coming in Power and Great Glory. He says that all the tribes on the earth mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven. Now, in verse 31 he sends his angels to gather the elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to another. This is way different than the son of man coming like a thief in the night, in the twinkling of an eye. Do you see the difference between the coming of our Lord in Verse 30 and the way the lord describes it in verses 37,39. This is not a discrepancy, but the “Rapture” and then the coming in Power and Great Glory. You said: “since 1 Thess. 4:17 is speaking of how we are 'caught up', and 'caught up' and 'taken' (in Matthew 24) are very close in meaning. I believe that the church will be 'caught up' and 'taken' away, leaving those who will suffer God's wrath to be left behind.” Exactly Marcarios, the church will be caught up leaving those behind to suffer the wrath in the tribulation. Then after the tribulation is the coming in Power and Great Glory, the gathering of the elect and those all across heaven, chaining and throwing Satan into the bottomless pit, reigning with Jesus for a thousand years…. etc, etc. Overcomers of what?? We have to overcome every day, as you well know. There are also Christians in the world these days that are killed for their beliefs and I'm sure it's going to get worse. Sorry but my question "Who is on the earth for Satan to deceive” was somewhat rhetorical but thank you for you answer. A few other points if I may: Rev 4:1-2 is after the church age and before the tribulation. The location of this event is right for the Rapture, a representation of the Church in Heaven. Chapters 2 and 3 deal with the seven successive periods of church history. Chapters 4 and 5 present a vision in heaven and chapter 6 introduces the Tribulation Period. Another point I would like to make is the fact that the “Church’ is referred to 16 times in the first 3 chapters of Revelation whereas chapters 6 through 18, which cover the tribulation, do not mention the Church once. The natural conclusion drawn from this is that the Church will be absent from the events of the Tribulation. The rapture of the Church is not explicitly taught in Revelation 4 but definitely appears here chronologically at the end of the Church age and before the Tribulation. I’m sure we agree that Revelation is in chronological order. Thanks for the discussion. I await your thoughts if you are so inlcined Have a great night Barry |
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6 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | CDBJ | 34261 | ||
You said that Christ will come very quietly in your third paragraph. This will be the most spectacular event to ever take place in the history of the World and you think that God will sneak us out of here with out any fanfare? I am more inclined to believe what it says in the Book of Revelation about the removal of the believers. Look at everything that takes place before Rev. 7:9 the very first words of verse 9 is (after this). Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; This is the whole body of Christ right after the rapture and if you assume that it is only a few that were saved during the tribulation, where is the church? This a very great gathering since (all) the angels were there, the elders were there, and the four beast were there but according to what you are trying to say, supposing that that church was rapture earlier, they weren't invited, I DON'T THINK SO! You say that you believe that the book of Revelation is chronological, I don't believe it is any different then the rest of the way that Christ use to teach. Jesus would tell his disciples something then he would explain it to them; Rev. is taught to us the same way. CDBJ |
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7 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | Hecameforu | 34457 | ||
Nice to see you CDBJ, It's been too long since I've read your pleasant words. :) First of all my brother, "a thief in the night" are the words of our Lord, not mine. I used "quiet", you used "sneak". Now isn't that what a thief in the night does, he sneaks in, takes what he wants and sneaks out? If this is not what a thief does then I'm mistaken and stand corrected. If a thief comes into your home at night and steals your wife’s diamonds, you wouldn't know it until your wife went to put her diamonds on. Well that’s what’s going to happen during the rapture. People will not know until it's too late. A thief does not come in power and great glory. Our Lord says “then they will see the son of man coming on the clouds with power and great glory”…….. “coming”, which means being seen from a distance as he comes to earth on the clouds with power and great glory. You don’t see a thief wen he comes in the night. A thief does not broadcast his actions. Also notice the word “they”. Jesus says “they will see”, not you will see, or you will all see, because the Church will no longer be there. I did not say that Jesus wasn't coming in Power and Great Glory. Indeed he is, but I maintain after the tribulation which is after the “rapture” when the Church is caught up in the clouds. There’s also a big difference between the words “caught”, “taken” and the word “gather”. Caught and taken are similar though. Caught: I Thess. 4:17 harpazô; from a prim. root harp-; to seize, catch up, snatch away:--carry off, snatch, snatched...away, snatches, snatches away, snatching, take...away...by force, take...by force. Taken: Matthew 24: 40-41 and many others paralambanô; to receive from:--receive, received, take, taken, takes, takes along, taking, took, took...along, took...aside, took along. Gather: Matthew 24:31, Ephesians 1:10 among others episunagô; to gather together:--gather...together, gather together, gathered, gathered together, gathers These are two separate moments. The Church is caught up or taken during the rapture and the elect and all in heaven are gathered together during our Lord’s glorious coming in Power and Great Glory. I’m sorry if you can’t see the difference between the two. I’m sorry if you can’t see what I’m trying to relate. I did not say that there were only a few that were saved during the tribulation. I did not say that the church was “not invited”, as you put it. The Church, when raptured is to be forever with the Lord as it says in 1 Thes. 4:17 It is not my contention to sway you or to argue with you but to present my view to the best of my ability. I was not anticipating a discussion of the Book of Revelation, just merely making note of the distinction between the Rapture and our Lord’s coming in Power and Great Glory. I hadn’t brought up this passage before but seeing as how you did, let’s take a quick look at it Rev 7:9 is, as you put it; "the whole body of Christ right after the rapture"? Well Jesus did say that no one knows the day, or the hour except the father, but you seem to have it pinpointed down to right after the sixth seal. That’s some divine revelation you’ve been given there brother :-) Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” This is where Rev 7:9 comes in. Well I certainly don’t profess to understand all the Bible and I’m always open to different views. Part 2 is next but not as long |
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8 | left during flood,left second coming | Matt 24:39 | CDBJ | 34468 | ||
I agree with you 100 percent about the thief but the problem is that Christ isn't going to come like a thief for the believers, at least the way I read it. 1 Thes. 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. The valuables that are going to be taken are His elect and as soon as we are removed God is going to clobber those that are left, and it will be right after the great tribulation. The great tribulation is caused by the wrath of the Antichrist not the Lord. Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. The short time is the last three and a half years. Jesus said that the tribulation will be cut short for the elects sake so that puts believers in that period. God has promised that his elect will not suffer His wrath and since there are believers on earth during the great tribulation that means that God is not metering out the wrath the adversary is. But the promise was given to all those believers that endure the tribulation till the end then they will be delivered. Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That's the rapture, Jesus will deal out punishment to those that have been troubling His elect. The rapture and retaliation is all going to happen on the same day. 2 Thes. 1:6-12 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. God will deal out fire to those who trouble his elect and he is going to do it on the same day that he come to be glorified in his saints. It will be like it was in the days on Noah, the believers were sealed up then wham. Lot shows us the same example it happened so fast that Lot almost got his shirttail burnt on the way out. Check it out it all ties together. CDBJ |
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