Results 1 - 16 of 16
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | kalos | 45154 | ||
Two aspects of the will of God. Part A 'You can have . . . two aspects of the will of God. The simplest way to describe them is God's moral will--what He morally desires, but doesn't always take place (like salvation for everyone)--and God's sovereign will--described in Daniel 4 and other places--that which He purposes to take place and which always happens. 'Two wills of God. Moral will and sovereign will. ************* 'The problem is that the Bible seems to indicate that God has a will for something which doesn't get done. Israel didn't come to Jesus, though He willed it. Not everyone is saved, though God wills it. Yet at the same time, the Bible says that nothing can thwart God's will. Check out Dan. 4:35: "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What hast Thou done?'" 'Now, isn't that a strong statement? Doesn't that indicate--especially in the context of Daniel 4, the unfolding of world history--that the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing in the sense that they cannot disrupt God's plan? He does what He wants. So, if it says in Daniel that God does according to His will and no one wards off His hand, and then we read in 2 Peter 3 that God wills we all be saved and yet we're not all saved, then clearly we can ward off His hand. 'Guess what we've got here, ladies and gentlemen. We've got an honest to goodness, bona fide contradiction. Daniel says nothing can violate God's will. Peter says, clearly, something can, because God wants all to be saved, yet all are not. Therefore, we do violate God's will. Now, how is it possible that God's will can be violated and can't be violated at the same time? It sounds like a contradiction. 'There's only one way out. The law of non-contradiction states that "A cannot be non-A at the same time and in the same way." The only way these teachings are not contradictory is if God's "will" in one case does not mean the same thing as God's "will" in the other case. This is the only way out. 'The words "God's will" can mean two different things. Or, to put it another way, you can have different "wills" of God, or two aspects of the will of God. The simplest way to describe them is God's moral will--what He morally desires, but doesn't always take place (like salvation for everyone)--and God's sovereign will--described in Daniel 4 and other places--that which He purposes to take place and which always happens. 'Two wills of God. Moral will and sovereign will. Moral will entails all those things God wants us to do, yet we may disobey. God wants us to be saved, yet many are not. God wanted Israel to turn to Jesus, yet most did not. God wants all kinds of things of His people--He wills those things--but they don't come to pass. There's a sense of God's will that can be violated. 'If you reject the notion that there are two aspects of God's will...you have one of two choices. Either God is not sovereign, or God is the author of evil and there is no such thing as disobedience.' (Arguments Part 4. Bad Arguments Against Calvinism by Gregory Koukl concluded in next part) http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/theology/badargum.htm |
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2 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 45170 | ||
Greetings Kalos! Interesting posts my friend! I think there is an easier solution though. There aren't any Scriptures which state that God makes our choices for us. So, I would explain the relationship between Sovereignty and free will in this way. God's will refers to His purposes and plans - those things that He Himself will do. For instance, the following verses speak of His plans. Is. 14:27 - "For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?" Is. 46:9b - "...My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please." Is. 46:11b - "...What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do." Even the Daniel 4:35 refers to what God purposes to do, stating that no one can thwart His plan. However, there isn't any verse which says that God makes our choices for us. I believe that God has sovereignly given us the ability to choose - to respond to His grace or to reject His grace. Granted, this is a limited freedom. We cannot change the means of salvation. We cannot prevent His second coming. But, we can accept or reject His grace. Under this system, we don't have to postulate two different wills. Just some thoughts my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | John Reformed | 70479 | ||
Dear Tim, The fly in your thelogical ointment is: If you are correct, and it is man who chooses God because of some unique aspect which differentiates one who believes from one who does not believe, then (since all we have comes from God), it must be asked, why has God not endowed all men with this aspect that incines them to accept His grace? John |
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4 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70499 | ||
Greetings John! This is the same conversation we had concerning the two wills of God in another thread! :-) If 'free will' meant only the ability to accept Christ and not to reject Him, then your point would be valid. But the whole point of a free choice is that there is a choice. Everyone can either accept or reject. Merry Christmas my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70501 | ||
By the way, Tim... I don't view the different aspects of the will of God in quite the same way as you do (recover from your shock!) This thread has mainly focused on an "active" will and a "permissive" will. From my perspective, both of these aspects fall under the same "decretive" will of God. Both what God chooses to do and what God allows to happen are part of His decree. I do see "God's will" used in a different sense in Scripture apart from this decretive will. When God gives His law, that reflects His will in another sense. Here is a concrete example: God tell humans not to steal. I think we would both say it is God's will that we do not steal, and that it is sin if we do steal. However, is God saying in this commandment, "I actively prevent you from stealing"? Obviously, since theft and robbery exist, that cannot be true. I also think it is safe to say that God is merely saying, "I permit you not to steal." So is God's commandment not to steal an example of an active will or a permissive will? I would answer that it appears to be neither a declaration of what God WILL DO nor a declaration of what God WILL ALLOW. The law of God merits a completely different facet of what we call "God's will." Some theologians call this a "preceptive will"; and I, having two eyes in my head, stand with you in agreement that God's preceptive will CAN BE and too frequently IS resisted, both by God's people and by Christ-haters. Am I making sense here? --Joe! |
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6 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70504 | ||
Greetings Joe! Yes, you are making sense! Without using the bigger terms, I see it fairly simply. The things that God decrees will come to pass and not one of us can do anything about it! :-) On that, I believe that we are in complete agreement. The question becomes more muddled when we start consider examples like you raised, about times when it appears that man acts against God's will. I don't feel the need to use 50,000 different terms (hyperbole :-) ) to describe the reason. My simple way of understanding it is that God decreed that man be a free moral agent. Therefore, God placed limits upon what He could do in regards to our will. Much like Jesus limited Himself in the incarnation. Because He allowed us to be free moral agents, the possibility now exists for us to act in ways that are contrary to God's will. To me, this is a very easy way to understand passages like Mt. 23:37 that we considered earlier. God willed to do something for us, but we resisted. In the same way, it makes sense of passages like 2 Peter where we find that God is not willing that any should perish. Yet, people do perish because we resist God's will. So, I could operate with just the two terms (active and permissive). Our disobedience of the Law of God is an example of our using free will, so I could classify it as permissive in that sense. But, i understand your point. I don't classify our decisions as part of His active will at all though. I see His active will as relating mostly to His actions, not ours. Well, I need to get to bed, so I'll chat with you later my friend! Merry Christmas, Tim Moran |
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7 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70509 | ||
"So would you say that the commandments of God are His active will or permissive will? So, I could operate with just the two terms (active and permissive). Our disobedience of the Law of God is an example of our using free will, so I could classify it as permissive in that sense." Well, you are mixing up the terms of my argument, Tim. I agree that our DISOBEDIENCE is part of what you call God's "permissive will." But let's look at the commandment itself: "You shall not steal." Is this commandment (not OUR obedience or disobedience of the commandment, but rather GOD telling us what to do) an example of active or permissive will? Other passages make this more clear to me: For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God" --1 Thessalonians 4:2-5 Here we have the commandment of sexual morality referred to as God's will. This moral commandment eternally stands as God's will whether anyone obeys it or disobeys it. The commandment itself does not alternate between being God's "active will" or "permissive will." It is our RESPONSE to the command which falls under God's decretive will. I guess that we could look at in that way: PRECEPTIVE WILL: What God instructs us to do. DECRETIVE WILL: What God Himself has determined to do in His creation, or has determined to allow His creation to do. See? I have the same number of terms you do! :) --Joe! |
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8 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70534 | ||
Greetings Joe! We are close here! :-) You wrote: "I guess that we could look at in that way: PRECEPTIVE WILL: What God instructs us to do. DECRETIVE WILL: What God Himself has determined to do in His creation, or has determined to allow His creation to do." The only place I would differ is that I would not include our response as part of His decretive will. I would list that under His permissive will. But, other than that, I can fully agree with your definitions! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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9 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70554 | ||
"The only place I would differ is that I would not include our response as part of His decretive will. I would list that under His permissive will." Do you not put it there because you think "decree" implies causation on God's part? Because when I say that God decrees all things, I don't mean that He causes all things. I don't see the two as synonyms at all. --Joe! |
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10 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70559 | ||
Greetings Joe! Exactly! :-) When I think 'decree', I think 'scripted'! :-) Have a Great Lord's Day! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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11 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70604 | ||
"When I think 'decree', I think 'scripted'! :-)" So it seems what we may have here is a difference in connotation. Another word Westminster uses in biblically defining God's providential decree is His "governing" of all that happens in His creation. To me, governing would include both the active and the permissive. Where I really see us differing is not in our understanding of God's will, but in two other areas: what unregenerate man in himself is morally capable of, and to what extent the governing of God is "active" and "manipulative," for lack of a less-negative-sounding term. We both agree that God is an intervening God to some extent, and we both agree that God does not directly cause everything (e.g. the sinful intentions of men and Satan). And I think we both agree that at least the "big picture" of redemptive history is scripted. The question on which we disagree seems to be just how much of our own role is written by us, and how much is written by the sovereign Dramatist and Director. Blessings! --Joe! |
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12 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70624 | ||
Greetings Joe! Pretty good summary! If I remember my readings correctly though, there are many Calvinists who would go further and say that God pretty much 'controls' everything. But, it sounds like we are not really that far apart. It is a good reminder for us to make sure that we define our terms in a discussion! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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13 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70628 | ||
"If I remember my readings correctly though, there are many Calvinists who would go further and say that God pretty much 'controls' everything." And depending on the connotation of the word "control," I would either agree or disagree. I hate using crude human examples to illustrate the workings of Almighty God, because the analogy always falls extremely short. However, as a teacher, I can say that I have "control" of my classes without saying that I am the cause of all my students' infractions of the rules. Now, unlike with God, unexpected situations arise in my classroom, and I cannot perfectly foresee my students' intentions and intervene to manipulate the outcome of those intentions. Nor can I supernaturally change the nature of those students so that they are now happily inclined to cooperate if previously all of them were inclined to rebel, as I believe God does in the life of a sinner. But an essential quality of the good schoolmaster is classroom "control." --Joe! |
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14 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70630 | ||
Greetings Joe! What grade level do you teach? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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15 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Reformer Joe | 70639 | ||
I teach grades 9-12. Please pray for me! :) --Joe! |
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16 | Two aspects of the will of God | Matt 23:37 | Morant61 | 70652 | ||
I will! ;-) My step mom teaches High School math and physics. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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