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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | Morant61 | 16637 | ||
Greetings Sir! Thanks for your response! Allow me to address your comments! I believe that you have understated both the complexity and the importance of the issues surrounding this passage. You said: "1. When did Christ go, before or after resurrection? (I say it doesn't matter, the point remains that he preached to the people who had died in the past)" The question of when is important for the following reason. Most would say that Christ went to the "prison" while He was in the grave. However, if the passage is refering to an event that occured after the resurrection, the "prison" may be some place other than the abode of the dead. You said: "2. Where did Christ go? (I say it doesn't matter, the point remains that he preached to the people who had died in the past)" I contend that this is a vital question. If the "prison" refers to the abode of the dead, then obviously He preached to the dead. However, if the "prison" refers to some other place, then the audience may have been different. You said: "3. Did Christ preach to people who died in the past or to demons? (I say that it is obvious in the passage that He preached to humans)" However, it is not obvious that "spirits" refers to humans. You said: "4. What message did Christ preach? (Although it is not difinatively stated, I think it is obvious from the context of verse 18 that this passage is talking about salvation, and would therefore have to assume that it is most likely that salvation was Christ's message)" Again, the content of the message is not spelled out. My point isn't really to debate the meaning of the passage. I was simply making that case that there are several valid ways of looking at this passage. The main reason I got involved in this thread though was to ask for your Biblical basis for saying that there has been a change in status concerning the death penalty. Your assumption seems to be (correct me if I have misunderstood you) that God allowed it in the Old Testament simply because those who were killed would get a later chance at salvation, but now they won't, so God has changed His position on it. My contention is that this entire view is based upon a lot of assumptions that are not supported by Scripture for the following reasons: 1) The New Testament never condemns the death penalty. 2) There is no clear Scripture that indicates that the wicked in the Old Testament were given a second chance. While I can understand your thinking, I just don't see the Scriptural support for it. Please note that I am not critical of your personal position, just the Scriptural support for it. I believe that we all have the responsiblity, as I pointed out in my discussion with Nolan, to be passive in our personal relationships. However, I view the death penalty as a government right and responsiblity. Thus, while I may personally forgive someone who harms me or my family, though I do believe we have the responsiblity to protect our family to the best of our ability. No where in Scripture is the government given a command to forgive. It is the governments responsiblity to administer and enforce the law. So, while I don't have the right to administer the death penalty, except in self-defense of myself or my family, the government does. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | Sir Pent | 16645 | ||
Dear Tim, You have some good points, and I agree that it is theoretically possible to interpret the passage in 1 Peter 3:18-20 differently than I suggest. However, I still think that the most common interpretation is also by far the most logical. Your questions 1 and 2 indicate that Jesus could have gone to a different prison than the one that the dead from the past were in. Once again, just looking at the verses, it says Jesus preached to "the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago ... while the ark was being built". I think it's safe to say that all the people who were alive when the ark was being built were dead. Your question 3 indicates that the "spirits" might not be human. I think there is a vast amount of Biblical support that angels and demons are not put into any kind of prison until the end of time. There are also numerous passages which refer to Hades/Sheol, and the people that have died inhabiting them while waiting for the judgement. It definately seems to be most logical that the "spirits" were the people who had died during Old Testament times. Your question 4 indicates that the message Christ preached is not clearly indicated. However verse 18 starts with "For Christ died for sins once for all", and verse 20 talks about the salvation of Noah and his family on the ark. "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water." Based on the context that verse 19 is both preceeded and followed by verses about salvation, I would find it to be quite a stretch to assume Jesus message was about anything else. I guess to sum up, I agree that there could be other ways to look at this, but they just don't make much sense. I also want to say that I understand where you are coming from. If you don't find this passage to be convincing that Christ gave a second chance to the people who died before He came to die for our sins, then you would not see the change that I see between the Old and New Testaments. I also understand that you do not see any New Testament passage which specifically condemns the death penalty. Let me just share one more passage of scripture, 2 Corinthians 10:3-4 talks about how we should no longer fight wars like the rest of the world, yet in the Old Testament there are many times when God commands the Israelites to fight wars. I think this is another good example of a place that indicates that something big has changed. "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds." (2 Cor 10:3-4) |
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3 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | Morant61 | 16648 | ||
Greetings Sir! Thanks for your response my friend! Overall, I think a view similar to yours is most likely. I was simply trying to point out that it is a very difficult passage. Since it is such a debatable passage, I would be reluctant to build a major belief upon it. For instance, one problem with saying that it refers to all the dead is the point that you made concerning those spirits who were alive during the time of Noah. Why does he restrict it to just them? Why not all dead? I don't know! :-0 Concerning the possibility that their might be spirits imprisoned somewhere now, Jude 6 does support that possibilty. It says, "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day." 2 Peter 2:4 also supports this concept, " For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;" Apparently, some angels were so wicked that God imprisoned them. One of the newer views of the "prison" passages is that Christ went to were these angels are imprisoned and proclaimed victory to them. You mentioned 2 Cor. 10:3-4! This seems to be a reference to spiritual warfare, not necessarily an indication that war is no longer valid. Whether or not we totally agree on this issue, we can definitely agree that we need more peace in this world. That peace will have to come from Christians, since man in his depravity in incapable of achieving it. Your Brother in Christ (and fellow trekkie), Tim Moran |
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4 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | Sir Pent | 16653 | ||
Dear Tim, Thanks for pointing out those refs about angels in prison. I would have to agree with you that I suppose there are some there. Overall, it looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject of the war and the death penalty. It's too bad though, because if one doesn't see that things have changed from the Old to New Testament in that area, then one has to come up with another explanation for why a loving and just God would command his people to go kill entire cities (including women and children). I of course have heard many explanations for this, and there's probably another thread on that already. But they all seem either arbitrary (which of course, God is entitled to be if He wants to) or Machievellian (sp?) in that "the ends justified the means" (preserving the purity of Israel justified the extermination of the contaminants in the land). However, that's a little outside the scope of this thread. When it all comes down to it, we do agree that we need more peace in the world, and the Jesus is the only way to get there completely. Live long and prosper :) |
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