Results 1 - 10 of 10
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does this make pretrib rapture unlikely | Dan 7:25 | Chusarcik | 70523 | ||
Daniel 7:25 says the saints will be handed over to the anti Christ for a period of time, times and half a time. It looks like that means 3 and 1/2 half years of the 7 year tribulation. Whether it's referring to the first or second 3 and 1/2 years, if the saints are there for the anti Christ to persecute, doesn't this verse rule out a pre tribulation rapture? Also, is there any though on whether this 3 1/2 years is the first or second part of the tribulation? thanks, Chusarcik |
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2 | Does this make pretrib rapture unlikely | Dan 7:25 | EdB | 70524 | ||
Chusarcik Who was Daniel's audience? It was the Jews, He is an Old Testament prophet, that wasn't aware of the church age. The gap of time between Daniel's 69 and 70 th week. To base any teaching about the church and the rapture upon Daniel is very dangerous. I believe this is talking primarily about Jews that come to salvation during the tribulation and the Antichrist doing everything he can to destroy them. This 31/2 years is the last half rather than the first half of Daniel's 70 th week. EdB |
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3 | Does this make pretrib rapture unlikely | Dan 7:25 | CDBJ | 70525 | ||
Greetings Edb, the answer you posted placed the emphasis on the audience of Daniel for your conclusion, yet isn’t it a fact that Daniel was talking about future things and the visions that he saw in his dream? Wouldn’t the interpretation of the dream pertain to all that would be present when these things would take place? I think that the verse in Daniel 7:25 is paralleled in Revelation, only it further elaborates by including a larger group of people, which will be from kindreds and tongues, and nations. Rev. 13:5-8 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [6] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. [7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. |
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4 | Does this make pretrib rapture unlikely | Dan 7:25 | EdB | 70532 | ||
CDBJ Yes your right, but again Daniel's focus was on his people. This prophecy shows no awareness of the church, therfore to try to use this to establish the timing of the rapture of the church is forcing scripture. EdB |
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5 | Does this make pretrib rapture unlikely | Dan 7:25 | CDBJ | 70537 | ||
I will admit to that unless we can prove that this one who is to come on the scene is warned about to the New Testament believers. Matthew throws a little more light on the subject when Jesus tells how the deceiver will come, when he talks about the mention of him in Daniel this is the key that it is for New Testament saint. Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Paul speaks and warns believers of the same peril that is to come to believers. 2 Thes. 2:7-10 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Here it even says that the Lord’s coming is after this working of the great deceiver or wicked one. The believers are being troubled by the workings of Satan and the Lord will deal with him for it along with those that follow his antichrist. The timing is even explained to us in II Thess. 2 Thes. 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. It looks to me like the coming of the Lord for the destruction of the wicked occurs on the same day that the Lord will come for us at the rapture, when he will be glorified in his saints. A lot of people would like to put a seven year gap in here but that isn’t what it says. It happened the same way in Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot was taken out then WHAM, the Lord struck! The same thing happened in the days of Noah. The same day he went into the ark and was safe the rain started and the floods hit. Same situation will happen when we are removed into the Lord’s presence. This left behind stuff is all wishful thinking on somebody’s part with a vivid imagination. II Thess. 1:8 doesn’t sound like fun to me when it talks about with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: That looks pretty clear to me unless I’m missing something or are you saying that there is more then one coming? |
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6 | Does this make pretrib rapture unlikely | Dan 7:25 | EdB | 70540 | ||
CDBJ I'm talking about the rapture of the church which is held to be a different event than the second coming of Christ. This is spoken about in 1 Thess 4:15-18. There are three commonly held schools of thought. One the pre tribulation rapture where the church will be caught up at the beginning of the tribulation and wait in heaven until Jesus does return. The second view is mid tribulation where the church is seen being taken up after the Antichrist breaks his treaty with Israel and before the wrath of God is pour out on earth in the middle of the tribulation period. The third were the church is called out to meet Christ in air as he is about to return to deal with the antichrist and begin the millennial reign of Christ. Now the question I responded to was does Daniel 7:25 make the pre trib rapture unlikely? My response was I don’t think we can set any time on the rapture from this passage in Daniel. Daniel is describing what the antichrist is going to do to Israel at the middle of the 3 ½ years. It says nothing about the return of Christ, nothing of the rapture, nothing of the church. Now your point about the rapture is well taken and I assume you’re a post tribulation supporter and that is okay. But again this passage in Daniel is talking about the mid tribulation and what the antichrist is going to do. EdB |
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7 | Does this make pretrib rapture unlikely | Dan 7:25 | CDBJ | 70548 | ||
No I am not a post tribulation, and the mid tribulation view is full of holes, but I will admit, I use to be pre tribulational. I will agree with you that there were three views and they all use Scripture to try and prove their point and all use correct verses. The fact is that the individual verses used are concealed from the rest of the verses that could disprove their view. Somewhere in there, there is a common denominator that takes all the verses into account and leaves no contradiction and that is what I would like to discuss because they can’t all be right in their view only the Scripture is right. The truth stands somewhere between all of these views and if people are open minded enough to admit this I would like to discuss it at length. I will concede to your point that the portion in Daniel is talking about the middle of the seven year period but where does it say that the first three and a half years or forty two months is tribulation, doesn’t Christ call that period the beginning of sorrow? Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. |
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8 | Please expound on your previous comments | Dan 7:25 | Chusarcik | 70576 | ||
CDBJ, I am only beginning to study Revelation and Daniel. I am trying not to be influenced by any current opinions about the rapture, but rather form my own opinion by slow and careful study. So far I am finding nothing that proves the Christians will be taken away before Jesus' 2nd coming. I may change my mind by the time I finish the study but this is what I think I've learned so far. This idea is so against the current train of thought I'm afraid to even discuss it with fellow church members for fear I'll be considered a heretic(or a lunatic). You seem to have studied more than me and still see holes in a pre tribulation or mid tribulation rapture so I'd be very interested in what you DO believe concerning the rapture.I would much appreciate what you have to say on the subject. thanks, Chusarcik |
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9 | Please expound on your previous comments | Dan 7:25 | CDBJ | 70580 | ||
I would like to call to your attention to a verse that will cover all the doctrine of Scripture and this should be taken into consideration in all studying of God’s Word. Psalm 119:160 (NASB) The sum of Thy word is truth, And every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting. Notice that it says, The sum of Thy word is truth, That means in order to have truth that all the verses that pertain to a certain subject have to agree before the truth of the subject is correct. If one verse seems to contradict your thesis then you better change your thesis to match up with Scripture or find what they call in fractions common denominator. |
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10 | Please expound on your previous comments | Dan 7:25 | EdB | 70586 | ||
CDBJ Most excellent!!! And the biggest thing forgotten in church doctrine today!!!!!!!!!! EdB |
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