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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Lucifer, Satan, Devil? | Is 14:12 | EdB | 126899 | ||
Ancient “As I understand it, the other versions you mentioned, while legitimate, were not considered authorized translations.” Authorization mentioned here means nothing more than the version was commissioned by King James and is virtually meaningless today. Your right the Vulgate was the Catholic version, then the Reformation took place and anything even remotely Catholic was virtually abhorred. The King James version wasn’t done just in spite of Rome but rather in open rebellion to Rome. It was to show Rome that the Protestants were not longer in any submission or control of Rome in open defiance of Rome’s authority. I think your misunderstanding of the shining one is one where you don’t understand what Strong’s is. Strong’s concordance is not a dictionary but in fact a concordance and that also supplies a ‘real sketchy’ definitions of words plus the words the Greek or Hebrwe was translated into. The definition preceeds the :- the translation follows the :- . However you if you look at a NASB Greek Hebrew dictionary you will see a far superior definition of the word and word the NASB translators used for the word. Strong’s heylel, Hebrew 1966, Strong’s heylel, from Hebrew 1984 (halal) (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star :- lucifer. NASB Greek and Hebrew Dictionary 1995 updated. 1966. Helel (237d); from 1984a; a shining one:— star of the morning(1). Thomas, R. L. (1998, 1981). New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : Updated edition (H1966). Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc. 499a Helel) [Stg: 1966] Helel. TWOT Our root represents the giving off of light by celestial bodies. (Paragraph removed contained special characters that rendered it unreadable.) The root occurs five (maybe six, KD Job 25:5) times. The verb is used by Job in highly poetic passages to describe the shining of the sun (Job 29:3; Job 31:26). In both instances the parallels make the meaning clear. Also, Isaiah 13:10 contrasts this aspect of heavenly bodies and the darkening of the sun and moon. These heavenly bodies are symbolically/figuratively darkened as a sign of blessing (Isaiah 60:19; Joel 2:31 [H 3:4]) and/or judgment whether historical (Isaiah 13:13; Ezekiel 32:7) or eschatalogical (Joel 2:10). All the uses of our verb appear in contexts with mythological connections. This is not to say that biblical writers assumed the validity of pagan myth. Indeed, as Job (Job 41:18 [H 10]) seeks to make clear, God alone exists as deity! The pagan gods are creations of their own minds (Isaiah 2:8). Leviathan is a toy in God's hands, i.e., he mocks the pagan religions. Interestingly, in Job 41:18 [H 10] the line parallel to that in which our verb appears alludes to shashar (q.v., cf. J. W. McKay "Helel and the Dawn-Goddess," VT 20: 456ff.) which is probably to be understood as the name of a goddess. McKay (op. cit.) contends that in the allusion in Isaiah 14:12-15 there is a Canaanite version of the Greek Phaethon myth as mediated and influenced by Phoenician culture during the "heroic age." The development of the Canaanite version is complex and has affinities with the Ugaritic myth involving Athar, son of Athirat, who was unable to occupy the throne of Baal. It was Phaethon who attempted to scale the heights of heaven and as the dawn star was ever condemned to be cast down into Hades (sheol q.v.). Even if one does not accept McKay's argument, it is important to note the following philological oddities: (1) harmoed (Isaiah 14:13) and Ugaritic (had to remove special characters) ("The Mount of Lala") where there assembled the (had to remove special characters) ("The Assembled Body" ANET, p. 130—UT 16 Text 137:20) and (2) the name (had to remove special characters) (Isaiah 14:13) which is well known in Ugaritic as the mountain of the gods. The God of Israel is not enthroned on Saphon; he reigns from heaven itself (cf. hekal). Any interpretation of Isaiah 14 which does not take into account the mythological allusion that does injustice to what is said there. [It may be helpful to add that this much-discussed passage with possible parallels to pagan mythology is actually in form a quotation from a heathen king. It is natural for a heathen king to boast that he would exalt his throne above the gods or above the mountain where he believed the gods assembled. R.L.H.] I don’t think my claim that the word means ‘shinning one’ stands in opposition to any of the references you claim you based your opinion on. I couldn't find any listing for the word in vine's I think this statement you made “Additionally, the Greek word used in the Septuagint is heos-foros, which also means to "bear light." This is consistent with the Latin word lucifer.” Bears out what I have been saying. I said “This is not to say that the actual word Lucifer was not influenced by the Latin Vulgate but that is long way from saying the KJV is translated from the Vulgate.” EdB |
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2 | Lucifer, Satan, Devil? | Is 14:12 | Ancient | 126998 | ||
EdB, I took time to look over your information and consider it. I also double-checked my references in case I was mistaken. You were right. The King James was written by 7(?) groups of Hebrew/Greek scholars of the time, commissioned by King James. The one I mistaken referred to was the Catholic bible translated to English only a few years earlier (1603ish) from the Latin Vulgate. Now, I was of the impression that the Strong's dictionary with the best of Vines included was a good lexicon. If you say it is not, I will take your word for it and ask if you can recommend a good Hebrew/Greek lexicon that will be both reliable and easy to use so I can do more accurate word studies? (ISBN number included in the recommendation would be a fantastic help). Now, the "shining one" versus "morning star" is a confusing issue. If it translates in its most literal sense as "shining one," why is it being rendered as "morning star" in all of the major translations? I do see what you are saying and why. This is why I am confused. Should it not be translated as "Shining One" if that is what the word truly translates to? Or is this "Shining One" a word/phrase that was used perhaps as an epithet for the planet Venus, much like lucifer is used for the planet Venus while it retains the literal definition of "Light Bearer?" Hope to hear from you soon. Ancient |
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3 | Lucifer, Satan, Devil? | Is 14:12 | EdB | 127012 | ||
Anicent First let's address the issue of Strong's. Strong's concordance was originally put together as a simple concordance. That means a way to find a particular word within the Bible. Strong’s provided multiple services. First he numbered every word in the Bible. Secondly he complied a list of what the word was in the original and what it was translated into. Later simple definitions were added. However today you can buy a Strong's Lexicon which while still based on his original works contain a more in-depth definition of the various words. However there are better dictionaries out there, Vine’s is good but does not contain all words, Word Study Dictionary publish by AMG and written by Spiros Zodiates is excellent but you need to know the Strong’s number. There are number of others I personally use. But let me say I have become more reliant on software. I have made the conversion to electronic library. I did this using two packages Libronix/NELSON/LOGOS and WORDSEARCH. With these two products I can instantly reference thousands of reference books. They will instantly generate my own personal interlinear Bible and/or an Englishman’s concordance which provides and compares the definitions from multiple references. Of one book that is used is “ The Hebrew Aramaic and Greek Dictionary of the NASB exhaustive concordance updated edition.” It is done by Lockman but I think it is only available in software. I can not find a ISBN. Sorry! However you can order the software from Lockman. If you have never used a software Bible study program you may want to try this. You can see for yourself how very useful it is for a rather minimal price. Don’t be confused this is far more extensive than anything presently available on the Web. With the Wordsearch package I can actually hear the pronunciation of Greek Hebrew Aramaic words on my computer speakers. However you may want to check out The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary New Testament and Old Testament by Spiros Zohiates published by AMG Also check out his Hebrew Greek Key Study Bible. Don’t throw away your Strong’s or your Vines they are excellent for what they are. As to your question about Lucifer/Morning Star/Shining one. Obviously the translators knew and understood the perception that this was a reference to Satan or at the very least a pagan god. Therefore they adopted a translation that also spoke to that. If you will look at the margin references in a NASB you will see stated there the correct translation. EdB |
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