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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | pleasestate your undestandingof verse | Prov 16:33 | DocTrinsograce | 211575 | ||
Hi, Keliy... The casting of lots was a common means used by the Israelites (Leviticus 16:8; Joshua 18:6-10; etc.) and others (Ester 3:7; Jonah 1:7; etc.) of making judgments of various kinds. God is sovereign over the entire universe (Psalm 103:19; Romans 8:28; Ephesians 1:11). God is sovereign over all of nature (Psalm 135:6-7; Matthew 5:45; 6:25-30). God is sovereign over the angels, including Satan (Psalm 103:20-21; Job 1:12). God is sovereign over nations (Psalm 47:7-9; Daniel 2:20-21; 4:34-35). God is sovereign over human beings (1 Samuel 2:6-7; Galatians 1:15-16). God is sovereign over animals (Psalm 104:21-30; 1 Kings 17:4-6). God is sovereign over "accidents" (Proverbs 16:33; John 1:7; Matthew 10:29). God is sovereign over the free acts of men (Exodus 3:21; 12:25-36; Ezekiel 7:27). God is sovereign even over the sinful acts of men and Satan (2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Chronicles 21:1; Genesis 45:5; 50:20). See also post #193851. As creator, He rightfully disposes, decrees, and discharges all things such that He will receive the most glory (Isaiah 42:8) and the greatest good will be achieved for His elect (Romans 8:28-30). So determining the flip of a coin or the roll of the dice is nothing to Him! And yet, it is everything to us (see post #182821). John Gill writes that the result determined by the casting of lots "is to be ascribed, not to blind chance and fortune, to the influence of the stars, or to any invisible created being, angel or devil, but to the Lord only; there is no such thing as chance, or events by chance; those events which seem most fortuitous or contingent are all disposed, ordered, and governed, by the sovereign will of God." I think the Amplified version expresses the sense of this verse perfectly well: "The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is wholly of the Lord [even the events that seem accidental are really ordered by Him]." This verse is a proper and comforting reminder that not even the slightest thing is not being perfectly and precisely controlled by the almighty, all knowing and wise, and perfectly loving Lord God. In Him, Doc |
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2 | pleasestate your undestandingof verse | Prov 16:33 | keliy | 211576 | ||
Thanks for the information Doc, I am in agreement with you on God's attributes. "The Knowledge of the Holy" by A.W. Tozer is an excellent book. I feel that the AMP version is a faulty choice and disagree with its use for doing proper exegesis. I believe in the sovereignty of God. I agree with Tozer in above named book, Chapter 1, page 1, when he says, "What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us." However, when you stated in your post, "This verse is a proper and comforting reminder that not even the slightest thing is not being perfectly and precisely controlled by the almighty, all knowing and wise, and perfectly loving Lord God." I feel I must disagree. What this is saying, is that the slightest thing, such as what color socks I choose to wear is governed by God. Even if I flipped a coin to decide, it is a choice made by God and not random chance. This means that if I chose black socks, there is no way that I actually ever had the capability to choose brown socks. This is known as determinism. This said, I will say that I am not a 5 point Calvinist, and do not accept Unconditional election, because it is man's teaching, not found anywhere in the Bible. I do believe in God's sovereign will I do believe there is nothing that happens that is outside of God’s sovereign will. But even when God allows things to happen, such as the devil waylaying Job, He must decide to allow it because He always has the power and right to change any outcome. He knows of course when to intervene and when it is best not to. I DO believe in God's perfect will. This is the aspect of God’s will that describes what He requires of us and what is pleasing to Him. I also believe there is another side, God's permissive will. This is God’s declared will or revealed will that tells us what we should do. This is important because we are able to know that it is God’s will that we do not lie, that we love our neighbor, and we need to repent of our sins. Sometimes we do not do exactly as we should. . This is backed up by Romans 12:1-2 That being said, and as I am sure this has been debated many times before on this forum and throughout the ages, May I ask you now, to return to the original question at hand? The Primary question, the one I asked you what is your take (?) in the above post? It is always a blessing conversing with all of you. keliy |
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3 | pleasestate your undestandingof verse | Prov 16:33 | DocTrinsograce | 211578 | ||
Dear Keily, I sincerely hope that no believer here is thinking in terms of fate or determinism. The word "fate" comes from ancient paganism. "Determinism" has more modern roots, but is equally Godless. Predestination in a Calvinistic sense or the absence of it in an Arminian sense always has to do with God and how He manages His creation. Nevertheless, there can't be more than one thing that is sovereign. Either God is in control of all things or something else has power over God. Keily, the Lord's eternal purpose is not to enthrone the fallen, human will. Where is it written that He will protect the power to choose from everything else? The sovereignty of human, self determinism is a mighty shaky foundation, theologically, philosophically, practically, and biblically. Here's how the old divines of the Historic Baptist faith chose to put it: "God hath decreed in Himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree. (Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5)" (1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith, chapter 3, paragraph 1) Thus, the brothers of Joseph, chose -- of their own free will -- to violently treat their brother and sell him into slavery. Nevertheless, what they meant for evil, God meant it for good (Genesis 50:20). This in no wise exonerates the brothers of guilt for their freely chosen course of action, nor does it lay that blame upon the Lord, who brought it all to pass. If God controls nature, stars, sun, moon, nations, history, principalities, powers, men, and redemption -- even maintaining the existence of your socks and their nature, which includes their color -- why is it such a difficult leap to imagine Him able to control your choice of socks in such a way as to leave you your free will and achieve His eternal purpose? A god who cannot contravene human will, is an impotent god. A god who dictates all things is a pointless god. A God who sovereignly rules the universe to achieve His glory and our good, is a trustworthy, loving God, beyond understanding, worthy of all praise and honor. In Him, Doc "In my classes in the seminary, I raise questions like, 'Is God in control of every single molecule in the universe?' When I raise that question, I say, 'The answer to that question will not determine whether you are a Christian or a Moslem, a Calvinist or an Arminian, but it will determine whether you are a theist or an atheist.' Sometimes the students can't see the connection. And I say to them, 'Don't you realize that if there is one molecule in this universe running around loose outside the scope or the sphere of God's divine control and authority and power, then that single maverick molecule may be the grain of sand that changes the entire course of human history, that blocks God from keeping the promises He has made to His people?' It may be that one maverick molecule that will prevent Christ from the consummation of His kingdom. For if there is one maverick molecule, it would mean that God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God. If there is any element of the universe that is outside of His authority, then He no longer is God over all. In other words, sovereignty belongs to deity. Sovereignty is a natural attribute of the Creator. God owns what He makes, and He rules what He owns." --R. C. Sproul |
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4 | pleasestate your undestandingof verse | Prov 16:33 | keliy | 211583 | ||
Hello again, Doc You wrote, "Either God is in control of all things or something else has power over God." Either God is in control of all things OR something else has power over God? I think the answer is a bit more complicated. His ways are higher than our ways. Can anyone rightly put God's attributes into such a tiny box? Your either-or logic does not explain that I can have control over my own willpower in certain scenarios, such as if I go to church, or rather to sin. You say, "something else has power over God" ? To have power over God would be to have the ability to change or direct His will. God always retains the power to change and/or direct my will through the use of outside influences: And a voice said, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? I do not possess such power, nor does any, other than God. ... thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, ....and thou preservest them all; ... (Neh 9:6) Otherwise, when I do sin, it is God that has ordained that decision for me. That is in contradiction to the info you provided: "thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein -1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith" Without a will that is totally free to choose its own course of action, how do you explain your statement, "the brothers of Joseph, chose -- of their own free will -- to violently treat their brother and sell him into slavery" -Can you tell me that this was God's plan, which started as plot to murder Joseph, but he was not, due to a reprieve that came through brother Reuben? There are many influences that are put in place by God, and the dreams of the famine was one of them, and coupled with the drought suffered by Joseph's homeland. So God is able to take what was meant for bad and turn it to good. But He could not have been the author of the plan to kill. This was initiated by man's nature, which is contrary to God's. -But, what was meant for bad was not authored by God, by your own admission. God turns bad to good, hence in my prior post to hopalong, "those circumstances that are arranged by God are the most fortunate occurrences of life." This is in contrast to what the flesh desires. This is backed up in Scripture often, but I will use Rom 8:5, "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." You wrote, "Either God is in control of all things or something else has power over God." Are you intimating here that God chooses who walks in the Spirit and who walks in the flesh? Do I, or do I not have that power to choose a course of action to take?? If the flesh is contrary to the desires of the Spirit, does God control every movement of the flesh? By your line of thinking, as I understand it, those that exercise their own minds to make independant decisions are exercising power over God. I hope you can clarify your statement. I know that God has power over the nature of my socks and directs the way my eyes discern the color of them. Yet, If I am unable to choose to wear argyle socks with blue-jeans, then I do not have power of my own free will. I submit that I can wear anything I want, any day I want. Even though God is the provider of all materials, time, and energy to do so. And God has unlimited power to sway my decision, if and whenever He chooses. For if there is one maverick molecule, it would mean that God is not sovereign. -Sproul -This, my godly friend, has nothing to do with choice. It is exemplary of the vastness of God's presence and power. God made rocks but he did not give rocks the power to choose. God orders every molecule and atom in every rock to be a rock. (Scientists call this "molecular cohesion"). Otherwise, any 'maverick' molecules of any material would go their own way, choosing their own path, as God, in His ultimate wisdom, has given mankind the ability to do. God also empowers us to walk in the Sprit, for we are insufficient to do this on our own. Those that choose to follow His commands are given more power to do so. God's blessings to you this day, keliy |
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5 | pleasestate your undestandingof verse | Prov 16:33 | DocTrinsograce | 211587 | ||
Dear Kiley, The affection that people have for their own self determinism, entrenches this presupposition so deeply that neither logic nor authority can hope to dislodge it -- at least, neither logic nor authority alone. The human heart, being predisposed to its own control ("master of my fate, and captain of my soul") makes men tenaciously clutch the self-affirmation taught from many a pulpit. If you care to search the forum, you'll find that I have addressed, if not directly to you, each and every one of your objections (they are not new) as succinctly and clearly as I was able. To me, that record seems sufficient. I apologize, but I lack the time, energy, and desire to pursue this topic. I have to employ wisdom as to which enterprise warrants expending my limited resources. Nothing personal. If you would like to investigate it further, for your own purposes, going beyond the meager offerings in the SBF archives: The theological subject you are speaking of is addressed in a branch of theology known as soteriology. It is explicitly called "libertarian free will" or "decisional regeneration." With no cost, and little effort, you can find over two thousand years of discussion and judgment in the church, on the topic using these keyword combinations: Pelagianism/Augustinianism, Arminianism/Calvinism, Meritorious Works/Freely Credited Faith, Prevenient Grace/Irresistible Grace, Foreseen Faith/ Unconditional Election, Synergism/Monergism, Open Theism/Classical Theism, etc. Everywhere you'll find Scripture references, history, and rhetoric galore. I hope that these resources will be of benefit to you. As you deem best, exercise your free will to exert the intellectual sweat to study the subject, either to increase the sophistication of the arguments you use to bolster your current position, or to revise that position. You might even enjoy the process. Thank you for the discussion. In Him, Doc PS If you like A. W. Tozer, you might be interested in the 27th chapter of "The Knowledge of the Holy." He has some light treatment of this subject there. |
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6 | pleasestate your undestandingof verse | Prov 16:33 | keliy | 211591 | ||
Thank you Doc for your effort, may the Lord bless you for your time was well spent. As I stated in my post to you above, "....and as I am sure this has been debated many times before on this forum and throughout the ages, May I ask you now, to return to the original question at hand?" this makes me really wonder whether you actually read the posts that you reply to. So, when you say, "The affection that people have for their own self determinism, entrenches this presupposition so deeply that neither logic nor authority can hope to dislodge it" Do understand that this applies to yourself as closely as it does to anyone else? Sorry, but the 27th Chapter does not exist in my copy of Knowledge of the Holy by Tozer, c.1961 -It goes no further than chapter 23. In His Love, keliy we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. (1 Cor 8:1) |
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7 | pleasestate your undestandingof verse | Prov 16:33 | stjohn | 211593 | ||
Hi Keliy: Knowledge puffed up? I can assure you, Keliy, that the Knowledge that Doc so graciously takes the time to share (and humbly) with others, nether can nor has been exemplified by precious few that I've had the profound pleasure to know. (in my humble opinion) I do hope that you do indeed take the time though it may be at some great effort, for these things are difficult at best to truly understand, exert the sweat to explore this subject beyond the scope of this forum or what has become available to you through other sources. It's worth it. _____________________________ from post ID# 211583 Let's try something different? Quoting you, quoting Doc, with emphasis on the word 'OR' "Either God is in control of all things OR something else has power over God?" Then you wrote: "Can anyone rightly put God's attributes into such a tiny box?" Okay, now lets put the emphasis where it rightly belongs. Either God is in control of ALL things or something else has power over God. "All" things is not such a tiny box. Is it? Either He has power over All things or He is not Almighty God, but only, sorta mighty God and something or someone else has some of that power over God. Just my two cents Almighty God bless John :-) |
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