Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | lightedsteps | 219884 | ||
Hi mr. Beja Wow you not only read fast you answer the same way. let me say Me. Sourgeon does give what I consider to be a pretty good reason for everything that the Apostle said. so here it is. This is what he said would be the improvement on the doctrine which he referred to in my Part (7) Thanks for the reply lightedsteps |
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2 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | lightedsteps | 219885 | ||
Part (10) And now, lastly, we come to improve this doctrine. If Christians can fall away, and cease to be Christians, they cannot be renewed again to repentance. "But," says one, "You say they cannot fall away." What is the use of putting this "if" in, like a bugbear to frighten children, or like a ghost that can have no existence? My learned friend, "Who art thou that repliest against God?" If God has put it in, he has put it in for wise reasons and for excellent purposes. Let me show you why. First, O Christian, it is put in to keep thee from falling away. God preserves his children from falling away; but he keeps them by the use of means; and one of these is, the terrors of the law, showing them what would happen if they were to fall away. There is a deep precipice: what is the best way to keep any one from going down there? Why, to tell him that if he did he would inevitably be dashed to pieces. In some old castle there is a deep cellar, where there is a vast amount of fixed air and gas, which would kill anybody who went down. What does the guide say? "If you go down you will never come up alive." Who thinks of going down? The very fact of the guide telling us what the consequences would be, keeps us from it. Our friend puts away from us a cup of arsenic; he does not want us to drink it, but he says, "If you drink it, it will kill you." Does he suppose for a moment that we should drink it. No; he tells us the consequences, and he is sure we will not do it. So God says, "My child, if you fall over this precipice you will be dashed to pieces." What does the child do? He says, "Father, keep me; hold thou me up, and I shall be safe." It leads the believer to greater dependence on God, to a holy fear and caution, because he knows that if he were to fall away he could not be renewed, and he stands far away from that great gulf, because he know that if he were to fall into it there would be no salvation for him. If I thought as the Arminian thinks, that I might fall away, and then return again, I should pretty often fall away, for sinful flesh and blood would think it very nice to fall away, and be a sinner, and go and see the play at the theatre, or get drunk, and then come back to the Church, and be received again as a dear brother who had fallen away for a little while. No doubt the minister would say, "Our brother Charles is a little unstable at times." A little unstable! He does not know anything about grace; for grace engenders a holy caution, because we feel that if we were not preserved by Divine power we should perish. We tell our friend to put oil in his lamp, that it may continue to burn! Does that imply that it will be allowed to go out? No, God will give him oil to pour into the lamp continually. Like John Bunyan's figure; there was a fire, and he saw a man pouring water upon it. "Now," says the Preacher, "don't you see that fire would go out, that water is calculated to put it out, and if it does, it will never be lighted again;" but God does not permit that! for there is a man behind the wall who is pouring oil on the fire; and we have cause for gratitude in the fact, that if the oil were not put in by a heavenly hand, we should inevitably be driven to destruction. Take care, then Christian, for this is a caution. 2. It is to excite our gratitude. Suppose you say to your little boy, "Don't you know Tommy, if I were not to give you your dinner and your supper you would die? There is nobody else to give Tommy dinner and supper." What then? The child does not think that you are not going to give him his dinner and supper; he knows you will, and he is grateful to you for them. The chemist tells us, that if there were no oxygen mixed with the air, animals would die. Do you suppose that there will be no oxygen, and therefore we shall die? No, he only teaches you the great wisdom of God, in having mixed the gases in their proper proportions. Says one of the old astronomers, "There is great wisdom in God, that he has put the sun exactly at a right distance—not so far away that we should be frozen to death, and not so near that we should be scorched." He says, "If the sun were a million miles nearer to us we should be scorched to death." Does the man suppose that the sun will be a million miles nearer, and, therefore, we shall be scorched to death? He says, "If the sun were a million miles farther off we should be frozen to death." Does he mean that the sun will be a million miles farther off, and therefore we shall be frozen to death? Not at all. Yet it is quite a rational way of speaking, to show us how grateful we should be to God. So says the Apostle. Christian! if thou shouldst fall away, thou couldst never be renewed unto repentance. Thank thy Lord, then, that he keeps thee. "See a stone that hangs in air; see a spark in ocean live; Kept alive with death so near; I to God the glory give." |
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3 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | lightedsteps | 219886 | ||
Part (11) There is a cup of sin which would damn thy soul, O Christian. Oh! what grace is that which holds thy arm, and will not let thee drink it? There thou art, at this hour, like the bird-catcher of St. Kilda, thou art being drawn to heaven by a single rope; if that hand which holds thee let thee go, if that rope which grasps thee do but break, thou art dashed on the rocks of damnation. Lift up thine heart to God, then, and bless him that his arm is not wearied, and is never shortened that it cannot save. Lord Kenmure, when he was dying, said to Rutherford. "Man! my name is written on Christ's hand, and I see it! that is bold talk, man, but I see it!" Then, if that be the case, his hand must be severed from his body before my name can be taken from him; and if it be engraven on his heart, his heart must be rent out before they can rend my name out. Hold on, then, and trust believer! thou hast "an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, which entereth within the veil." The winds are bellowing, the tempests howling; should the cable slip, or thine anchor break, thou art lost. See those rocks, on which myriads are driving, and thou art wrecked there if grace leave thee; see those depths, in which the skeletons of sailors sleep, and thou art there, if that anchor fail thee. It would be impossible to moor thee again, if once that anchor broke; for other anchor there is none, other salvation there can be none, and if that one fail thee, it is impossible that thou ever shouldst be saved. Therefore thank God that thou hast an anchor that cannot fail, and then loudly sing— "How can I sink with such a prop, As my eternal God, Who bears the earth's huge pillars up? And spreads the heavens abroad?" How can I die, when Jesus lives, Who rose and left the dead? Pardon and grace my soul receives, From my exalted head." |
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4 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | lightedsteps | 219887 | ||
Hi again Mr. Beja Now as far as I understand and believe these three verses they are the anchor so to speak that says and defines for us who believe there is No Loss of Salvation for the Sons of God. There is no other place in scripture that has condensed this belief into one teaching something we can hold on to as an assurance to our souls in Gods own words I Hold you in My hand You Are Safe NOW. |
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5 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | lightedsteps | 219888 | ||
Beja Your statements are numbered my explanations underneath are not. (1) His point is that the author is in reality presenting an impossible scenario. Your right Beja the author is presenting an impossible scenario he clearly says that in v.4 that is how he started his teaching. "For it is impossible" (2) He is talking about true saved people, Your right again as he said a child would come to the this conclusion if he read these passages. (3) he is talking about real falling away of saved people, Right again but this is where the author has to insert the IF in v. 6 because he originally stated that it was impossible then he went on to describe who he was talking about ending with the fact the ones he has spoken of could not ever fall away. (4) and he asserts that such a situation would render salvation impossible for that individual. your statement is confusing to me so I will state it the way he says it is. The coming back to the point of another salvation repentance again. Jesus died once for him. (5) Only the author of Hebrews point is that this could never happen. Last but not least you are Right again. To put it into todays language It is impossible for anyone that has gained salvation through the grace of God to ever lose that salvation. In other words to fall away. But if they ever could then it would be as impossible for them to ever come back to the point of a new salvation for them because they have rejected the first one provided for them by Jesus Himself. At this point the only other reference I will use is Heb 10:26-31 What he is actually saying is. It is impossible for you to fall away but if you could. Sort of a catch 22 (6) Now, to me the real crucial point of such a take on the passage, is that you must show a reason the author of Hebrews would have said this. It has to contribute to his argument in some way or form. In other words, why would the author of Hebrews have ever brought up a situation that will never happen? It has to have some contribution to the larger context. I think Mr Spurgeon answered your question pretty well in the last of my posts 10, 11 I think I understand what you have meant it seems like an insertion into the text because it doesn't follow the whole narrative of the chapter. My ref. in Heb 10 has a rather good context that works because the author says close to the same thing. But this time it follows the narrative. nice having someone to discuss thoughts with lightedsteps |
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6 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | Beja | 219947 | ||
Light, I've finally managed to read part 10 and 11 of Spurgeon's sermon, and I must say I was hoping for more on how this fits into the context. I am not saying he is wrong or right, but due to the great contention over this passage I was hoping he would make his case stronger. Basically I think if one was to debate the issue and argue his view (not that we are debating) two things would need to be established in light of what he said. 1. First it would need to be established that the notion of unshakeable salvation was so imbedded into the author and reader's thinking, that they would have understood an impossible situation was being discussed as Spurgeon is suggesting. My point being that there is no such assertion in the text. The only way you can put it there is to consider it "a given." For those who might find this alarming, once again I do not believe you can loose your salvation. 2. Second, Spurgeon adressed what would be the point of stating an impossible situation, but he did not explain the point trying to be accomplished by telling us this in Hebrews chapter 6. In other words, how does this reading of the passage fit with what comes both before and after it in the book of Hebrews. Once again, I'm not saying he was wrong. I'm just saying that I'd like to hear somebody explain those things. Once again, thank you for posting it. I enjoyed it very much. In Christ, Beja |
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7 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | lightedsteps | 219961 | ||
Hi Beja Your thoughts on Spurgeon's sermon, "I was hoping for more on how this fits into the context. I am not saying he is wrong or right, but due to the great contention over this passage I was hoping he would make his case stronger." my answer Are you saying that based solely on the fact Spurgeon did not make a stronger case by bringing it back to the context of the entire passage you cannot accept his interpretation as correct? As you have stated there is great contention over this passage. Has anyone else made a better case by doing those things you say? your thoughts "Basically I think if one was to debate the issue and argue his view two things would need to be established in light of what he said." 1. First it would need to be established that the notion of unshakeable salvation was so imbedded into the author and reader's thinking, that they would have understood an impossible situation was being discussed as Spurgeon is suggesting. There is no such assertion in the text. The only way you can put it there is to consider it "a given." my answer It is hard for us to understand the beliefs held by those of the first church. We do not have the benefit of hearing firsthand what the Apostles taught. If the assertion you are referring to is missing. Was it Spurgeon or the Author of Hebrews that failed to make this assertion? 1) It must have been the author because "There is no such assertion in the text" then there must have been the "GIVEN" in the authors mind. Is that then what Spurgeon has seen which would then account for his lack of connecting it to the context of the passage in which it appears. Because it is a truth an understanding that would stand on its own merit. Therefore it became an interjection by the author in his teaching to a people that new these things. Question Does a truth of God that has not been connected to the overall context of the book or chapter in which it appears cease to be a truth? We need to understand and remember these books were written to churches that didn't have the canon of scripture that we possess today. They didn't have the benefit of understanding how things are to be read in context and in light of other scripture. Therefore did they have a better or different understanding of the reality of salvation than we do today? Where these things we need weren't needed by them. We only have what has been written and the interpretations of those teachings. We on the other hand have what could be called denominational doctrines. These doctrines can be arrived at when reading exactly the same piece of scripture but coming to opposing doctrines. 1Co 1:12,13 12) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 1Co 3:3,4 3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Because of the differences in our beliefs today are we not yet carnal? What have we lost? What I am saying is there are truths to be found in the bible that we will never be able to come to or believe in or avail ourselves of because our doctrinal beliefs have shut the door to those truths. If it is a contextual issue on your part then doesn't chapter 10 satisfy that? Your brother Lightedsteps |
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8 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | Beja | 219976 | ||
Light, Let me clarify my thoughts in a few concise statements, so that any further statements I make in a less organized way aren't misunderstood. 1. I believe that none who come to saving faith and repentance through Christ will ever loose their salvation. 2. I believe all scripture when rightly understood agrees with itself, therefore this passage can not be teaching the elect loosing their salvation. 3. I believe that this is a difficult passage, and therefore we can not simply say it says one thing without a strong defense, and then wonder why people don't just "believe it" to be the right interpretation. 4. Anytime, anywhere in scripture that I can not see -why- an author said what he did when he did, then I assume there is something I have not fully understood yet, even though I might understand the passage for the most part. Some of the best insights I've gleaned in the past why preparing sermons, was when I refused to stop until I knew why the train of thought went from one subject to the next the way it did. 5. I do not see why at this point in time, the author of Hebrews decided to present a hypothetically impossible situation about loosing salvation. I can understand somebody doing that, and I can understand the values of it as Spurgeon presented it, though I can not understand how that particular thing fits into what the author of hebrews was saying before and after he said it. 6. Because I can not see how it fits with that context, I assume there is something I do not yet grasp about the passage. That could mean that Spurgeon is right, and I just need to figure out how it fits. Or, that could mean Spurgeon is wrong. But what it certainly means is that I haven't fully figured it out yet and therefore I must keep questioning my understanding of the passage and putting it to the test. That sums up my thoughts on it, I hope it helped clarify what I am thinking. In Christ, Beja |
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9 | Heb. 6:4-6 Security | Gen 1:1 | lightedsteps | 219985 | ||
Hi Beja I can honestly say we are of the same mind as far as the irrevocable nature of our salvation. I also respect your integrity as for your seeking of the truth. I feel a mutual striving for this illusive knowledge. Always keeping in mind our God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. You are right I do the same thing as I believe everyone that desires to possess the truth should do. Never giving up for in our indever we are in effect seeking knocking and asking. With that in mind we know we will be rewarded by God. He has promised our labors will not be in vain. We should persevere being diligent to rightly divide the word of truth. A tool that I have used most often is to recite a passage (I am having trouble understanding) out loud attempting to capture the same tone as the author meant them. Even as though God Himself was speaking these very words to me. I have found when I do this if I take these words spoken in the bible personally I can then hear the truth to be found in them. In doing so I have experienced God speaking His word to me in such a way that it has at times changed the belief I had in a certain passage. When we read the bible we do so with our reason our intellect we also interpret what is being taught within the passage comparing what we are reading with what we already know. There are times "we" might be getting in our own way. But when we read a passage out loud that we are having trouble with we then only hear it our brains are incapable of speaking hearing reasoning interpreting comparing at the same time. Our intellect then is effectively bypassed. If we are intent on speaking the words as they would have been said we will then hear them as the would have been meant. At this point I would advise you to read from Hebrews 5:11 through 6:9 this seems as though it could be a complete thought all of which would then be in context. Maybe your hearing it rather than studying it will help. We have a tendency to keep seeing the same things over and over again. My prayer is that this will aid in your understanding lighted steps |
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