Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | Apollos | 185814 | ||
Doc Thanks for your helpful response. I 'm sure you are right. I wonder though about people who were regenerate prior to Christ's coming like the saints of Hebrews 11 who were saved by grace through faith and who demonstrated their faith by their works. This was all without hearing of Christ (for obvious reasons). There are even examples in the OT of gentiles who were clearly regenerate like Job and Melchizedek. My queries about Cornelius are just a tentative exploration of the possibility that he may have been someone like this. Such people on hearing the gospel will always of course recogise it as just what they have been waiting for. Is it even possible that such people may exist today who have not yet heard of Christ? These are only honest questions and my Evangelical convictions are not in doubt. I am very happy to be shot down in flames! Thanks for your great contributions and wonderful quotations. Apollos |
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2 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 185828 | ||
Hi Apollos, My question for you is that which I have often asked, yet none seems able to answer. Where do we seen regeneration happen in the Bible in the Old Testament? - By what the Bible says, not by "logical argument"? Is there anywhere in the Old Testament, besides in the prophecies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, who are foretelling what will happen in the future time, that speak of re-birth, which is regeneration? For example, many will say, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. That means he was born again." But is that what the Bible actually says? Jesus said, "Unless a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot the kingdom of heaven." Why do you suppose the OT believers were in "Abraham's Bosom", the comfort side of Sheol? You need not answer these questions to me, but if you wish to have a true and Biblical understanding of this topic, you need to understand the Biblical answers. There are many convoluted "logical arguments" and "theological systems" that will endeavor to impose human reasonings upon Scripture, but I challenge you to search out this question I have asked, and accept what you find in the Word. Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | Apollos | 185830 | ||
Hi Mark Thanks for your response. You ask me for a biblical reference from the OT to show that OT saints were regenerate and you don't want convoluted logical arguments. I don't think it's wrong to apply God-given logical thought to the data we have in scripture That's what the early church had to do when they came up with the doctrine of the trinity even though the word does not occur in the Bible. I deduce from the fact that the patriarchs, prophets and psalmists show every sign of loving God and not being hostile and rebellious (as Israel was in general) that their sinful hearts had been changed and that their hearts were circumcised. This, as far as I am concerned, is just another way of saying that they were regenerate (i.e. God had changed their hearts). David certainly prayed for this ("Create in me a pure heart O God - Psalm 51) as well as for forgiveness of sins. I reckon God granted both his requests. I don't think he could have written Psalm 23 unless God had worked at least as powerfully in his heart as he has in mine. If you think that a heart changed by God is not regeneration I would be interested to know in what ways you think regeneration differs from a heart changed from hatred of God to love for God and trust and delight in God. Every blessing Apollos |
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4 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 185836 | ||
Hi Apollos, Lest I be misunderstood, I don't think the Bible is illogical, and I don't think we should throw logic by the wayside. But I have heard many theological arguments on this that do not do justice to the Word. You mention the doctrine of the Trinity, and I think that is a useful example. While the Bible never uses the word itself, it is a simple matter to show this doctrine from Scripture alone without commentary: Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.” Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. There are many more sets such as this that I could include, but let this suffice, since we both already know this. The Bible declares there is One God, and the Bible declares that the Son is God, the Father is God, and the Spirit is God. We do not need complex argurments, the Scripture shows this. David prayed, "Create in me a clean heart, O God." When and how did God grant this? Not according to guesses, but what does the Bible actually teach? I realize that it "makes sense" to many that Abraham, for instance, was "born again". But I have not yet found where the Bible teaches that. You mention a "changed heart". There are places in the Old Testament that speak of God changing a man's heart. One is Pharoah. Another is King Saul. There was Bezaleel, the only one in the entire OT that was said to be "filled with the Spirit". Pharoah's heart was hardened by God for the judging of Egypt. Of course, Pharoah hardened his own heart as well, which if memory serves came first. Bezaleel was filled with the Spirit for the express purpose of constructing the tabernacle and it's furnishings. His filling was specifically said to be to construct, and teach the construction of this articles. Pharoah's heart could be hardened. Couldn't a heart be softened? Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | Apollos | 185837 | ||
Hi Mark Yes - I think it is clear that in the OT God both hardened and softened hearts. I think the softening of the heart so that it willingly responds to God and his word is just another way of saying regeneration. Yes - Bezalel was filled with the Spirit for the specific purpose of contructing the tabernacle. He may or may not have been regenerate. To be given a spiritual gift is not necessarily to be born again. This is clear not only from the OT but also from the NT. Judas was sent out by Jesus to peform miracles and Jesus said that "many" would claim that they had cast out demons and prophesied, but that he would not recognise them at the last judgement. In Him Apollos |
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6 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 185840 | ||
Hi Apollos, That's a good point about Judas. It would seem from Scripture that he, as the others, performed miracles, while clearly he was not saved. But this whole idea that regeneration precedes faith and repentance, in my view, flatly disagrees with what is plainly stated in Scripture. Act 3:19 Therefore repent and convert so that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Repentance precedes forgiveness. Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation. Belief precedes righteousness, and confession precedes salvation. Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, and your household. Here belief precedes salvation. Regeneration, the giving of spiritual life to us, is the deliverance from our body of death. Now the body can die, but we don't die, we have spiritual life. Regeneration is our deliverance from the curse of the Law. The soul that sins shall die, but we are alive. Our new creation isn't identified with the old man, this is our justification. We are reborn in Christ, this is our righteousness. Love in Christ, Mark |
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7 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | Apollos | 185841 | ||
Mark This is an old controversy and I don't really want to spend much more time debating it. In my view regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit which is logically prior to faith, repentance and assurance of salvation, though as Doc has reminded us it may often be virtually indistinguishable chronologically. I just don't see how a person who is by nature at enmity with God can turn to God unless his nature has been changed. The conscious receiving of the Spirit (Acts 2:28)certainly follows repentance and faith, but there must be a work of God in the soul before repentance and faith can take place. I fear that we might debate this forever and I'm sure it must have come up on previous occasions so having clearly stated my position I am happy to bow out of the debate at this point. I am still uncertain about the exact timing of Cornelius' regeneration - which is what started our discussion off! May the Lord continue to bless us and guide us into all the truth. Apllos |
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8 | eph 1:4-5 what is predestination, chosen | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 185842 | ||
Hi Apollos, It is indeed old! :-) We shall let the matter rest, simply allow me to add that I appreciate the spirit in which you write. I would hazard to say that your view would only allow that Cornelius was regenerated long before Peter came, long before the angel visited, as his reputation of good works had spread throughout the nation. Logically, this would mean then that the angel's visit, followed by Peter's preaching, was a result of Cornelius' regeneration, and the good works it had wrought in his life. Love in Christ, Mark |
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