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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176471 | ||
Tim, If you can not see that pastor, elder, overseer, presbytery are synonyms, we will never resolve this. Please do a word study on the latter list of terms and see that they are used interchangeably in the Bible. I do not know any other way to explain this to you. If someone else is reading this, please weigh in to help our brother Tim. I gave you a list of duties of the elders...what do you mean by "there are a few things...about the duties...based upon narrative passages." The "narrative passages" that you related to are scriptures... inspired Words of God. Paul said, "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" 1Cor 14:37. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles...that's you, unless you are a Jew. Paul was given the words, straight from Jesus, on how to set up the church. To reiterate, he said the elders would be overseers. He outlined the qualifications of the elders. Peter said elders would be overseers of the church. You have been hired, chosen, appointed, or called to be the "pastor" of the believers where you are, right? So, you are the overseer, right? What is your "exact" job description? You said, "God doesn't give us an exact job job description." If God calls someone into the ministry, I would think when you pray and ask Him what to do "exactly", He would tell you. How specific do you want Him to be? Just the words: oversee and feed my flock seem to cover a lot of ground and easy to understand. I am glad you have many leaders for your church...the problem is that you also have a pyramid...with only one person at the top. The leadership is not egalitarian. You said the devil is getting me hung up over a nonessential point. The government and the way God intends for His church to be set up is nonessential, Tim? We may as well throw out the Bible and just "do church" based on what we think and feel. Paul said let all things be done decently and in order 1Cor 14:40. Even America's founding fathers realized that we had to have an organized government for this country to function. Tim, I am submitted to our Father, and I am sure you are too...always ready to have the eyes of our understanding enlightened. We are in Him and He is in you and me, Bereaniam p.s. The word "pastors", plural only appears once in the NT. p.s. |
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2 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Morant61 | 176481 | ||
Greetings Bereaniam! You asked for a word study, so here goes! ;-) The words (in order of fewest number of occurances to greatest) are Pastor(1), Overseer(5), Deacon(29), and Elder(66). Here are my findings. Pastor is never used in connection with any of the other words, so it is difficult to say if it is synonymous with any of the other words or not. Later, I will make a case for it being synonymous with one of the other words. Overseer and Deacon are clearly not synonymous. They are used together in Phil. 1:1 of two distinct groups. Further, 1 Tim. 3 lists them as two distinct offices. It could be argued that Elder is synonymous with Overseer, but the case is very weak. Acts 20 speaks of of Paul calling the elders of Ephesus, then v. 28 speaks of them as being overseers. However, it could be that v. 28 is not using the word in the sense of a title since in Titus 1, overseer and elder seem to be listed as two seperate offices. So, any attempt to make these terms synonymous is at best weak. If I were to make any connection, I could see an argument for pastor and overseer being synonymous, but even that case is weak. Here are my conclusions. 1) Pastor (overseer) - Pastor is only used once, and overseer is only used 5 times (once in reference to Christ) (Acts 20:28, Phil. 1:1, 1 Tim. 3:2, Titus 1:7, and 1 Pet. 2:25). Though the qualifications of an overseer are spelled out, the ministry of one is only described in terms of shepherding (Acts 20:28). Nothing is said about how many there should be in a church, or even about how they are selected. 2) Elders: The word occurs 66 times in the NT, but it appears to be used of a church officer only 17 times (Acts 11:30, 14:23, 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23, 16:4, 20:17, 21:18, 1 Tim 4:14, 5:17, 19, Tit. 1:5, 6, James 5:14, and 1 Peter 5:1. They are specifically said to be appointed by the apostles and their fellow laborers. They are also specifically tied to preaching, teaching, decision making, and prayer. 3) Deacons: The word itself occurs 29 times in the NT, but only 4 of these seem to refer to a church officer (Rom. 16:1, Phil. 1:1, 1 Tim. 3:8, and 1 Tim. 3:12). Nothing is said about how they are appointed, or what they do. If one goes by the meaning of the word, and the example of the seven in Acts 6, they would seem to be primarily involved in physical ministries. Nothing in any of this study would indicate any of the following: · That there is a set structure that every church is commanded to follow. · That there is a set number of leaders that every church is commanded to have. I hope this study helps! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Bereaniam | 176482 | ||
Tim, Initially , I asked the question about the structure of the church because I was searching for an answer. I knew that this bible study forum would offer their expert insight and challenge me to study. Thank you so much for your patience with me. I just strive to be on the same page with my Father and Savior. (I pray the baby you went to visit, and the mom are healthy and happy). If you will read BradK posts...I like the concept he presents that a pastor/teacher is an iterant office just like the evangelist, prophet, and apostle. I never said deacon was synonymous with overseer. You said, "in Titus 1, overseer and elder seem to be listed as two separate offices." To further make my point about the words elder, overseer, bishop being synonyms...The KJV of the Bible uses bishop in Titus 1:7, the Amplified Bible uses bishop, the NAS version uses overseer, the NIV uses overseer, the Message Bible calls them church leaders. I have different versions of the Bible, but I use KJV most of the time. If Paul called for the elders of the church in Acts 20:17 to talk with them, and he is talking with them from verse 17-35, why do you think when he calls them overseers in verse 28 that he is talking to another group of people? You think that is a weak argument for saying elder is the same as overseer? The number of times we see words used in the Bible sometimes depends on what Concordance and what version of the Bible you are using. You said how pastors are selected is not given in the Bible...Eph 4:11,12 says He (Jesus) gave some...pastors for the perfecting of the saints. I believe that a pastor has to have a clear call from Jesus by the Holy Spirit to that ministry. How were you selected? You said the Bible does not say how many should oversee a church...no it doesn't. But to reiterate, it sure does make it clear that more than one person should be at the top. You said there are no commands to how many leaders and what kind of structure a church must have. Again, Paul says if you are spiritual, acknowledge that the things he writes to us are the commandments of God. 1Cor 14:37 Paul tells the Corinthians to let everything be done decently and in order. Our problem is that we are led by the flesh most of the time...not the Spirit. I believe, especially in America, many of us just do our own thing. The Holy Spirit is on a backburner. Is the present day church like the Laodicean Church? We think we're rich, have no need of anything...but we are actually poor, naked, wretched, left our first love. We need a revolution...then the revival can happen. May our Father bless you and the church where you gather with all spiritual blessings. Bereaniam |
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4 | Elders not a pastor should lead church | Bible general Archive 3 | Morant61 | 176498 | ||
Greetings Bereaniam! Thanks for the reply my friend! Allow me to touch upon a couple of your points, and then I must get to bed. :) 1) Which translation? My word study was based on the Greek text, not an English text. So, it didn't really matter what words the English translations used. 2) Different group: I didn't mean to imply that Paul was addressing a different group in Acts 20:28. I meant to say that it is not certain that Paul is using the term 'overseer' in the sense of an office or simply as a description of the ministry of the elders. If he is using it as an 'offical' term, then elders and overseers would be synonymous. However, it would then be unclear why he lists them as seperate offices in Titus 1. So, I would argue that Paul is probably not using 'overseer' as a title in Acts 20:28, but as a description of what an elder is supposed to do. 3) Number of occurances: Again, my word study was based on the actual Greek words. Therefore, the count is accurate, even though some translations may differ occasionally. 4) Call of God: The call of God comes in a variety of ways. An individual senses God's call, but also others must recognize God's call. Someone once said that a person can't be a leader unless someone else follows. :-) My point has simply been that God does not mandate one set method of Church structure. That is why there is no specific commands to do such and such. That is also why there is no specific commands as to how many pastor's there should be. Why can't simply make an assumption, and then treat that assumption as a command of God. 5) Laodicean Church: Again, I have a problem with lumping every congregation under this broad condemnation. There are certainly dead and dying congregations in the U.S. But, there are also many who are alive and rich in the love of Christ. We can always use revival, but let's not condemn the many congregations who are serving God faithfully. 6) Finally, the commands of God: 1 Cor. 14:37 specifically refer to the commands that Paul had been writing to the church at Cornith in 1 Corinthians. Paul did not mean that everything he had ever written was to be taken as a command. For instance, 1 Cor. 16:19 says, "The churches in the province of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Priscilla greet you warmly in the Lord, and so does the church that meets at their house. " This is not a command. It is a greeting. :-) It is important that we only treat as commands those things that actually are commands. Well, I have to run! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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