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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Makarios | 46165 | ||
Greetings Parable, You say, "..this verse doesn't help someone if they are in fact looking to the Bible to understand what is the good they ought to do, as is the point of the original question about masturbation." My response: Oh yes it does! You stated, "Remarkably, your question about how I "honestly feel" makes my point for me. We are not to interpret scripture in terms of our feelings, rather we are to interpret our feelings in terms of scripture." My response: That is great! However, I would still direct you to 1 Thess. 4:3-7. You stated, "I'm not saying God blesses acts of masturbation, and I'm not saying he curses them either." My response: Please read 1 Corinthians 6:12-20. Your body is not your own to do with as you please! You have been bought with a price. And also, to use 1 Cor. 7 to justify masturbation is a blatant attempt to misapply Scripture to justify a sinful act. Do you worship and idolize your wife in such a way that you misuse your own body parts for her glorification? Or is it simply the indulgment of sinful flesh? Paul never even hints at attempting to justify masturbation in anything that he wrote. I interpret 1 Cor. 7 as saying that sexual relations have their proper expression in marriage, and that the husband and wife should not deprive each other from themselves. Many men who I have known have fallen prey to the sin of masturbation, only to see their marriages falter and their sins multiplied into pornography.. Such disgusting consequences of a "seemingly" harmless or unnoticable sin are brought out into the open when the door to that sin has been crossed and, now, other sins, such as looking at other women besides your wife, now suddenly become much more desirable to you than before. Do you truly see no harm in it? Do you have no inclination or leading to give it up? Can you honestly say that you have experienced great spiritual growth while practicing masturbation? Masturbation is not wholesome, not edifying, not healthy to your marriage, and it is certainly not something that you want on your conscience as not being 'repented of' when you have to give an account of yourself to the Lord. We are called to both purity and holiness! And masturbation cannot serve to support either one of those two virtues. Masturbation is a sin that hinders our spiritual walk with Christ, and it should be repented of if practiced, and avoided if ever brought into question. But you say, "But the Bible doesn't give me a specific verse that says: "Thou shalt not Masturbate!" Does the Bible need to mention every single dirty deed that man can innovate so that we should know whether to abstain from it or not? I do not believe that the Bible should do so, since we already know how we must live, and we will not have any excuses for that which has clearly been given and revealed to us, which is the Holy Spirit! And the Holy Spirit clearly signifies and leads me to believe that masturbation is a sin! I believe that masturbation should have absolutely no part in the life of a Christian, whether they are married or single. I appreciate your comments about my posts and my insights, and I hope that I have not come across as 'argumentative' or condescending. But I have written here about how I honestly perceive the subject of masturbation, and I believe that it will prove very costly to your marriage if not discontinued, my friend and brother in Christ. Just a few weeks ago, the youth pastor of our church got up in front of the entire congregation and confessed to his sin of masturbation, and we have begun an accountability group that consists of myself and several others, to keep this dear friend and brother in the Lord on 'the cutting edge' of his spiritual relationship with God. Also, his wife is very supportive of helping her husband deal with this problem, which is a great blessing! I will close this post by offering you a couple of Scriptures that I believe speak to this very subject: Romans 12:1, Romans 12:2 Blessings to you, Makarios |
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2 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Parable | 46885 | ||
Part 1, Makarios, You have supported your position well; your interpretation of the scriptures you cite is most righteous. And your points about the potential risks associated with masturbation are insightful and important. I feel your comments deserve my best effort, so I have tried to respond in a meaningful way. Thanks for your patience with the length of my response here. (and no, I did not write this in one sitting!) I hope you will be interested in what I have to say, especially about how masturbation has been part of something good in my life, see part 1 of 3. Regarding myself, I recognize there are many who are far wiser and far more mature in Christ than I am, so I am open to what you and others have said about masturbation. Indeed, much of what you describe about purity and holiness I see happening in myself, as the Holy Spirit does His miracle in me, so to answer one of your questions, I do have a desire to grow in purity and holiness, so masturbation is not big on my list for today. In that spirit, however, I must admit I am not convinced that what you have said about masturbation, i.e. that it is always sexual immorality and sin, necessarily follows from what you have presented. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong or that what you say cannot be accepted, indeed you may be right, but rather that it is not the only interpretation that we, as vessels for the Holy Spirit, may hold. To support this, I note that in the following 18 instances (listed in The Complete Book of Bible Lists, by H.L. Wilmington), in which sexually impure people are identified, not one is described as impure by virtue of masturbation or anything like it: Gen19:5, Gen19:30-38, Gen34:1-2, Gen35:22, Gen38:9, Gen38:14-18, Num25:6-14, Judg16:1, 1Sam2:22, 2Sam11:4, 2Sam13:14, 2Sam16:22, Hos 1-2, John 4, John 8:1-11, Luke 7:36-39, 1Cor5:1, Rev2:20. Rather, the issues are homosexuality, incest, rape, adultery, refusal to father a child by the wife of a dead brother, fornication, sex in the tabernacle and in public, and leading others to sexual immorality. Please note: I'm NOT encouraging anyone to masturbate or do anything else they feels God calls them not to do. Given this, I am concerned that the zero tolerance approach, as applied to masturbation, 1. may be a stumbling block for those who might otherwise come to faith in Christ and 2. it is not helpful to those who may be dealing with masturbation as they learn to walk with Him. Indeed, I fear it may actually be harmful to those for whom guilt over this is excessive; in addition to God's truth, they need compassionate understanding in order to fully accept God's grace and forgiveness and to be open to the process of sanctification by the Holy Spirit. I'm not suggesting masturbation should be dismissed as irrelevant, for we agree there are serious problems that can develop, as is the case for eating and drinking. Rather, I'm suggesting that since the Bible does not expressly classify masturbation as sexual immorality or sin, we should help others to deal with it in a way that does not condemn them, as per Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." We can be assured of this, despite our daily failures to live pure and holy lives after coming to Christ, and it is this truth that helps us to grow toward perfection in Him as we allow the Holy Spirit to work in us. As I see it, I am emphasizing that those who masturbate are not necessarily condemned, i.e. not necessarily among the sexually immoral because the Bible does not say this, while you have rightly addressed the freedom we have from the law of sin and death and this is how we become pure and holy. end of part 1 of 3 |
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3 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Parable | 46888 | ||
start of part 2 of 3 Next, I'd like to respond to certain of your comments and questions to me. You said: "I would still direct you to 1 Thess. 4:3-7." OK. Here it is, complete with the Bible Gateway footnote: "3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[1] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life." Footnote [1] reads -- 4:4 "Or learn to live with his own wife; or learn to acquire a wife." This meaning for the word "body" implies the point is to keep sexual contact limited to one's spouse, i.e. to avoid adultery and fornication, as practiced by the heathen. You said: "Please read 1 Corinthians 6:12-20. Your body is not your own to do with as you please! You have been bought with a price." Here it is: 1Cor6:12-20 "12Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." Verses 12 tells me that not everything is good for me and I should not be a slave to anything. I concur. In verse 15, mention of the prostitute seems to again emphasize that the nature of immorality most certainly includes joining flesh with others. Of course, Christ said such sin begins in our hearts, so depending on what is in the heart, masturbation may be to adultery/fornication what anger is to murder and what greed is to stealing. You said: "And also, to use 1 Cor. 7 to justify masturbation is a blatant attempt to misapply Scripture to justify a sinful act. Do you worship and idolize your wife in such a way that you misuse your own body parts for her glorification? Or is it simply the indulgment of sinful flesh?" As I said earlier, I'm not trying to encourage or justify masturbation, but rather understand what the Bible says and does not say about it as compared to what people say the Bible intends. end of part 2 of 3 |
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4 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Parable | 46892 | ||
start of part 3 of 3 About my wife I said "...whom I love dearly". Worshipping and idolizing her are not loving, so the answer to your first question is "no, I don't worship and idolize my wife". For reasons not appropriate to discuss here, my wife and I have not been able to enjoy sexual intimacy for several years, surely a time longer than Paul means when he says "for a while". This has not been by mutual consent, as Paul suggests, but rather of necessity, and it has been difficult for both of us. Yet I have remained faithful, patient and loving. For me, thinking of my wife as my only sexual partner has helped me avoid the temptation to be with others. What makes this real is I have options if I wanted to pursue them. At least for now, occasional masturbation is how I maintain some semblance of sexual intimacy with my wife. Of course, its not a meaningful substitute for the real thing, but until such time as it is possible for us to do come together, it reinforces my desire for her to be my only partner. I acknowledge this is not ideal, but I do feel fidelity is what God is calling me to do and how I occassionally experience my passion for her is not sin and in fact helps keep me from sin. Perhaps this is an example of how "all things work for the good of those in Christ Jesus" -- Romans 8:28 You said: "Many men who I have known have fallen prey to the sin of masturbation, only to see their marriages falter and their sins multiplied into pornography.. Such disgusting consequences of a "seemingly" harmless or unnoticable sin are brought out into the open when the door to that sin has been crossed and, now, other sins, such as looking at other women besides your wife, now suddenly become much more desirable to you than before." I never said masturbation was "seemingly" harmless or unnoticeable, I said it was "unseemly". Regardless, I agree the problem you describe is real, but it has not been the case in my situation. You said: "Do you truly see no harm in it? Do you have no inclination or leading to give it up? Can you honestly say that you have experienced great spiritual growth while practicing masturbation? Masturbation is not wholesome, not edifying, not healthy to your marriage, and it is certainly not something that you want on your conscience as not being 'repented of' when you have to give an account of yourself to the Lord." I see the potential for harm, yet I believe in my case it has been part of preserving my marriage. You said: "But I have written here about how I honestly perceive the subject of masturbation, and I believe that it will prove very costly to your marriage if not discontinued, my friend and brother in Christ." This may be true, but to date, it has not become excessive or lead me astray, quite the opposite in fact. You said: "Just a few weeks ago, the youth pastor of our church got up in front of the entire congregation and confessed to his sin of masturbation, and we have begun an accountability group that consists of myself and several others, to keep this dear friend and brother in the Lord on 'the cutting edge' of his spiritual relationship with God. Also, his wife is very supportive of helping her husband deal with this problem, which is a great blessing!" I will pray for your youth pastor, his wife and your group. To be honest, I am disturbed by the idea you and your group think you can do anything to keep anyone on the "cutting edge" of a relationship with God. Yet, if masturbation has become a problem for your youth pastor, it is good for him to deal with it and if your group can help him, praise God! Finally, in all sincerity, I am wondering if the following 2 verses are part of what you teach in this group: Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out... My interest lies in the possible mis-interpretion that a sexually immoral person should castrate or otherwise mutilate themselves in order to avoid sin if they can't seem to avoid it in any other way. And, Matthew 19:11 "Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." which seems to suggest that continence is not intended for everyone, but only those "who can accept it". Grace and Peace. Your brother in Christ, Parable |
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5 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Makarios | 47569 | ||
Greetings again Parable, Romans 8:28 is a verse that is constantly misapplied and taken out of its context.. This time, unfortunately, you are using Romans 8:28 to justify the sin of masturbation. Peter and Titus warn us against those who use Scripture or teach against what has been clearly revealed to us as the Truth, so that we do not become detestable to God and defile our consciences (Titus 1:10-16; 1 Peter 2:1-3). There is no possible way that Romans 8:28 could be used or twisted to support the sinful act of masturbation. I believe that you and your wife should seek the counsel of your pastor, and not that of a Study Bible Forum, to help you in this very personal aspect of your marriage. You have stated, "To be honest, I am disturbed by the idea you and your group think you can do anything to keep anyone on the "cutting edge" of a relationship with God." You can misquote or misunderstand me to any degree that you prefer. However, what is more disturbing is that you can profess to be living a Godly life and to allow this sin to run rampant and unchecked, as if there were nothing wrong with it. And yes, by promulgating your stance on masturbation on such a public and supposedly Christian medium as this, you are encouraging the sinful act of masturbation. Speaking of continence, the Bible makes it clear that one can be free from sinful sexual enslavement, and there is not one single verse that states or even suggests that a Christian can or should make masturbation a choice. The Bible has already clearly pronounced that "choice" for us - to renounce it, repent of it, and to avoid it! I continue to wait for any solid support whatsoever that would make masturbation a justifiable act for a Godly man or woman to indulge in. Blessings to you, Makarios |
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6 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Parable | 47622 | ||
Once again, my intent is not to justify masturbation, but rather give account for my belief the Bible does not speak to it. This is indeed the point of your remark "...warn us against those who use Scripture or teach against what has been clearly revealed to us as the Truth". This whole discussion is about what it is that has been CLEARLY revealed as the Truth. With regard to my wife, I am not seeking the counsel of anyone on this or any other internet forum. I shared a personal example from my life in the hope that it might comfort others who may be struggling with excessive guilt over their own practices and to offer a suggestion as to how to manage themselves with a balance between discipline and compassion. "Just Say No", although a great idea, never was very effective for people struggling with drug addiction and in my experience, it's not much use for those who have normal, healthy sexual drive but who don't wish to fornicate or be adulterous. This is especially true for adolescents dealing with the powerful hormones driving their development. Teens please note: sexual energy is powerful and it must be respected with the utmost seriousness; do not think that masturbation cannot become a serious problem physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. If I have misquoted you, I sincerly apologize. So that I won't misunderstand you, as you suggest, please clarify what you mean by "You can misquote or misunderstand me to any degree that you prefer." Finally, I note that you did not respond to my questions about Mark 9:43 and Matthew 19:11. I can see how my asking might be contrued as insincere, but I genuinely am interested in how you apply or do not apply them to this topic. Thanks for your patience with me. Parable |
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7 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Makarios | 47634 | ||
Greetings Forum.. If there is anyone out there who is truly a Christian or who honestly wants to follow in a Lord/discipleship relationship with Jesus Christ, then please rest assured: the Bible says that all sexual immorality is a sin, and that includes masturbation. The spiritual status of this Forum is about as vibrant as a cold dead corpse. Is there ANYONE out there that is seeking a close relationship to Jesus Christ? Do all want to justify sin in wake of what the Bible and what our consciences clearly tell us? The fact that we have to even discuss this topic is an indictment against the spiritual status of casual Christians today. I do not believe that it is in any way edifying or honorable to God to in any way attempt to justify masturbation or to attempt to reason it out as a 'choice.' There is right and wrong, there is black and white. Masturbation is sin, and there is no gray area! Masturbation should NOT be considered as automatic and harmless as other activities such as consuming food. And may the Lord's anger be upon me if I ever encourage another to indulge in the sin of masturbation. In Mark 9:43, Jesus speaks about whatever there is that hinders must be taken away in order to progress and grow spiritually. In other words, if your mind is filled with thoughts of lust and passion, then those thoughts need to be done away with (or dealt with if a person is married) so that a person will not be led to indulge themselves in such sins as masturbation and adultery. God bless those whose minds have not yet entertained the justification of masturbation, those who have not sought to entertain such thoughts in their minds. For the thought of masterbation and its consequences is clear in my own mind, and the thought or attempt of its justification had never entered my mind, until now. But now I have to come up with a response to your post that is not only Scripturally based, but convincing.. And the content of my response has forced me to think of how you would react to such a proposition. Matthew 19:11 states, ".."Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given." In no way does this verse serve to justify masturbation. What this verse is saying is that not all men will be content to remain single, given their circumstances. And Jesus gives us some examples (in verse 12) of those who have chosen (and who are able) to abstain from sexual immorality AND marriage, since Jesus gave the disciples a high standard for marriage in verse 9, and the disciples responded by saying, "..it is better not to marry." The disciples clearly saw this standard (of being sexually pure) as being unreachable, or too high for them to attain. But Jesus clearly led them to believe that it was a reachable or attainable goal, by giving them some examples in verse 12. Therefore, you can handle your sex drive AND be able to remain pure and undefiled in both a marriage relationship and as a single person without a "necessity" to masturbate. For the "necessity" for sexual fulfillment is not in your body and it is not automatic. It is in your MIND. And that is where it can be dealt with, repented of, and forsaken of. Believe me, you CAN have victory over this sin, and it is not too hard or unreachable to attain! Blessings to you, Makarios |
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8 | 2 followups, masturbation and 1Cor7:2-5 | Bible general Archive 1 | Parable | 47656 | ||
I am dismayed that you have resorted to invective. Specifically, I object to your use of the following phrases: "If there is anyone out there who is truly a Christian or who honestly wants to follow in a Lord/discipleship relationship with Jesus Christ" and "the spiritual status of this Forum is about as vibrant as a cold dead corpse. Is there ANYONE out there that is seeking a close relationship to Jesus Christ? Do all want to justify sin in wake of what the Bible and what our consciences clearly tell us?" These remarks are not consistent with the second rule governing posts to this forum, found in the green box after you hit "preview". It reads "This post is not intended as a personal attack on the authority of the Bible or on other users of this forum." Furthermore, Matthew 7:1-2 instructs "1Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Regarding Mark 9:43, Jesus did not talk about "doing away" with "thoughts", he said to "cut off" "hand" or "foot" or to "pluck out" the "eye" if they cause you to sin. Yet, I acknowledge that it would violate Matthew 7:1-2 if I said that because you soften Jesus' words that you don't want to be a "real Christian" or that your spiritual status is "cold" and "dead". Regarding Matthew 19:12, you say "Jesus clearly led them to believe that it was a reachable or attainable goal, by giving them some examples in verse 12. The examples Jesus gave in verse 12 are eunuchs; "12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[3] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it." The footnote [3], at biblegateway.com, says the word translated "renounced marriage" can be translated "have made themselves eunuchs". As I understand the term eunuch, that is a male who is castrated. Is this what you meant by "attainable goal"? Is this how we can handle our "sex drive AND be able to remain pure and undefiled in both a marriage relationship and as a single person without a "necessity" to masturbate"? I submit Jesus discussion rather demonstrates that it takes EXCEPTIONAL circumstances to maintain continence and He only expects some to be able to accept this, yet He does not hold it against those who cannot. Parable |
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