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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | EdB | 129193 | ||
I must step in to correct a misconception here. Doc you said, "Ecumenism that teaches the worship of unity even at the cost of truth. That would put us back under the authority of priests and popes, with no apology or consideration of the hundreds of thousands who were killed and tortured for trying to put Bibles in the hands of common people" First there was no where near this number killed and /or tortured during the period of reformation or because of it. In fact there have been about 80 million Christians killed since Christ. More have been killed since the beginning of the 20th century than all the previous 2000 years. Today 160,000 per year die. The majority of Christians killed were done so by Pagans, Romans, Barbarians, Mongols, Muslims and etc. As of late the vast majority are killed by Communists and Islam. The most accurate estimates put the number killed as a result of split between Catholicism and Protestantism in the thousands and nowhere near 100’s of thousands. It is now believed that more Protestants died at the hands of other Protestants the result of religious intolerance than died at the hands of Catholics. Second point there is absolutely no truth to the story the Catholic church kept the Bible out of the hands of lay people. The biggest factor that kept the Bible out of the hands of lay people was the cost. Before the printing press Bibles were hand copied and we can only imagine the cost. Consider also a years wages then were like a days today. People simply could not afford the Bible. Also most were illiterate. If hands a Bible they would have unknowingly used the pages for other things. When the printing press was invented, which right around the time of the Reformation, the Bible was already translated into English and many other languages. Which leads us to my third point. The reformation was not about putting Bibles in the hands of the people. It was about who would wield the religious, political and social power? Rome or the Kings and Queens of Europe. The men with religious convictions such as Luther and his 95 points became mere pawns in this power struggle. The Protestant church emerged not in unity but as churches started by various political rulers in defiance of Rome's excommunications. Personally I was convinced the Catholic Church discouraged lay study. However after meeting Emmaus and going to the many websites he often posts I find that that Catholic church in many cases offers more and higher quality teaching than most Protestant groups. I have began to sample Catholic TV and with the exception of actual services or masses I find the quality of their discussions, teachings, and general information to far exceed TBN and the likes. I truly believe that while is a common belief among the protestant community, it is also false that the Catholic church discourages religious study and Bible reading among it’s adherents. EdB |
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2 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | DocTrinsograce | 129197 | ||
Regarding your third point: When did I ever say that the reformation was about putting Bibles into the hands of the people? Brother Ed, if you are going to dispute with me, please dispute with what I actually say. This way, when I'm wrong, I have a chance to retract my statements! Mistating my position is close kin to the straw man fallacy, but worse! That said, let me state what the purpose of the reformation actually was... then you argue with an accurate expression of my position. The purpose of the Reformation was to bring the doctrines of the Church back into agreement (that's why we use the word "Reformed") with the truths written in the law of Holy Canon. I can't believe that you would write off men like Martin Luther as mere pawns! Sure there was political intrigue and sure religion was used as an excuse for a lot of excesses. That's been true since Cain and Able! Sir, I do not mean to demean Catholic TV and TBN, but if this is the sole source of your perspectives on the Reformation, you'll be excited to know that you can actually read what a lot of those pawns with religious convictions actually had to say. You can read their debates. You can read their discussions of scripture and of their deep love for a God Who saved wretched men through no merit of their own. Getting it from the "horses mouth" so to speak is better than depending on these second-hand, pre-digested sources. Remember that "evil communications corrupt good manners." That doesn't mean you have to agree with them. But your understanding of church history will grow and, I think, benefit your understanding of God's washing of Christ's bride through the centuries. I even read St. Francis, Brother Lawrence, and other Catholics. I don't agree with them on everything, but I certainly find men who dearly loved the Lord. I'm a five pointer, but I still see the devotion and godliness of John Wesley. If you spend some time doing this, brother, I think you will be pleased to discover that we had faithful bretheren way back then. They didn't look like us, and they didn't sound like us, but they were there, walking with the Lord. May God be pleased to grant us grace that we might be found so faithful! |
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3 | Does Islam fit here? | 2 John 1:7 | EdB | 129211 | ||
Doc you said, “Ecumenism that teaches the worship of unity even at the cost of truth. That would put us back under the authority of priests and popes, with no apology or consideration of the hundreds of thousands who were killed and tortured for trying to put Bibles in the hands of common people.” While you did not mention the Reformation, from this description I think it was a fair assumption. However it was just that, an assumption, and if that isn't what you were referring to, I apologize. I did not write off Luther as a mere pawn I said he became a pawn of the power brokers of the time. The Reformation was about who was going to rule Roman or the autocracy. I hope your not saying the peasants were better off under serfdom. TV of any kind is not my perspective of Reformation, however having studied the Reformation for many years my perspective of what people perceive the Reformation to have been has changed as of late. I never realized the false information that is held by the general Protestant church in reference to the Reformation. Nor did I ever say you will never hear lousy theology on Catholic or any TV for that matter. In fact I would be surprised if the Catholic church didn’t have as many people talking through their hats as does the Protestant church. I will agree there are men on both sides of this issue that have a true and genuine love for the Lord. |
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