Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are unbelievers in any way "saved"? | Heb 11:1 | BradK | 118409 | ||
Rowdy, With all due respect, where exactly did my response lack balance? I only just answered a fairly simple question:-) This is the second time you've cried for the "need for balance", and I'm seriously missing a "why". As to your contention that, "But there's no way anyone can possibly defend a position that God would actually condemn someone based on a standard of judgment that the person had never heard", I ask "what saith the scripture"? Unless I'm negligent on this, Romans 1:19-20, and 2:1 answer this- and quite convincingly! In fact, the first 3 chapters of Romans make the case for man's sinfulness! I either seriously misunderstand you, or you're unequivocably mistaken to say "All human beings do have the image of God with which we're all created and that's the standard which will be used by God to determine whether they go to heaven or not." No. God's standard is BELIEF in His Son Jesus as John 14:6, and 17:3 state! There is simply no other standard, my friend, and to believe so is folly. Speaking the truth in Love, BradK |
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2 | Are unbelievers in any way "saved"? | Heb 11:1 | Rowdy | 118856 | ||
Please allow me to attempt some dialouge here only to try and nail down a clear understanding of your position. Are you actually trying to say you have studied this passage and concluded that God will judge that portion of the world past, present and future by Bible standards even if they've never heard of the Bible or any of its contents? Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. and Rom 2:1 I've re-read these scriptures and they seem to me to be in support of my statement. (It seems incredible these verses are coming from you in support of your statement.) Please let me summarize my statement: We're all endowed by God with His image as described in the first few chapters of Genesis. Now I know the "image of God" is NOT clearly and specifically described somewhere but you will agree that it must be the major differences that distinguish us from the rest of creation, right? According to the experts w/PhDs at apologeticspress.com, some of those differences are the ability to speak, think, love, hate, make intelligent choices, worship and know the difference between right and wrong AND last of all, we humans alone have a soul. Would you agree to all that? Surely, these (possibly others) make up some of that "image of God" installed in all of us. It's that conscience and our inner soul that grows within every young person which helps them reach "the age of accountabilitiy." It's the same quality that draws us instictively to worship some greater being than ourselves and that's the same quality that enables us to determine right from wrong and thus put together a working and functioning society. A society that passes laws and makes judgements when one of their own does wrong and shows extreme disdain for those laws. It's that same innate quality that God will hold up to our lives IF we live and die without knowing anything about His Word or His Son and His dying for the lost souls of the world. Surely, we can agree on this topic, can we not? I hope so, but I also pray for God's blessings on your continued study and understanding. --Rowdy |
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3 | Are unbelievers in any way "saved"? | Heb 11:1 | BradK | 118861 | ||
Rowdy, I followed you about half-way through your answer, and then I lost the connection. I simply was unable to follow your logic. What is unclear about "my Position"? It is not mine- per say- but that which is in line with the teaching of scripture. I don't think I'd be too far out of line to say that the vast majority of Evangelical Scholars would support this view. Again, it is in line with Biblical theology. To answer you, yes I have studied this passage and the rest of Romans in it's entirety! My conclusion is not merely a haphazard guess:-) Rowdy, the problem is not mine- and I don't say this lightly or arrogantly- so don't missunderstand me:-) If men are not judged with what they know about God as He has revealed it to them, how else are they judged? Are you saying that God has,therefore ,2 standards for men? There are the "those who've heard" and the "those who have not". Romans 1:18 ff is dealing with unbelief and it's consequences. The judgement and consequences are clearly portrayed in Romans 1-3. I cannot answer you but, "Their condemnation is just.What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin" ( Rom. 3:8b, 9) Lastly, I don't make the connection between being "created in God's image" and how that somehow saves us? When you say "It's that same innate quality that God will hold up to our lives IF we live and die without knowing anything about His Word or His Son and His dying for the lost souls of the world. Surely, we can agree on this topic, can we not?" No, we can not as it is Foreign to scripture! Perhaps if you could clarify what you're saying and couch it in Biblical-based theology, I could arrive at a better understanding. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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4 | Are unbelievers in any way "saved"? | Heb 11:1 | Rowdy | 118862 | ||
I'm saying that the Book of Romans, indeed the whole Bible is written to those who know of its existance and once hearing of its existance, yes they're bound by God to the best of their ability to check it out and see if it's true. Their conscience should tell them they'd better check it just in case they might be held accountable to it. In Romans, Paul is writing to christians. He knows they will read and re-read his letter. He also knew that we modern christians (and all the ones since then) would study it and use it for reference as Peter states in 2 Pet 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. I must reiterate again with Paul's words from Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. So you see, one can very easily sin against his conscience AND "apart from the law." When that is done AND they die in that condition, then they're held accountable to their conscience but NOT in accordance with the Law from God of any dispensation. I don't really see how I could make this any clearer. If you're still having trouble understanding my statement, try printing it and let someone else take a look. God bless. --Rowdy |
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5 | Are unbelievers in any way "saved"? | Heb 11:1 | BradK | 118863 | ||
Rowdy, Your words are "I'm saying that the Book of Romans, indeed the whole Bible is written to those who know of its existance and once hearing of its existance, yes they're bound by God to the best of their ability to check it out and see if it's true. Their conscience should tell them they'd better check it just in case they might be held accountable to it." I not only don't fathom what you're saying but it appears to be completely contrary to scripture, my friend! Where does the Bible tells us that it's only written to those who know of it's existence? It doesn't. And, further this does in no way excuse anyone. That is the argument of Romans 1! My point is this: All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God! Mankind is without excuse before God- whether they know of the Bible and it's truth or not! That IS the teaching of Romans 1, Rowdy. Now, if we're stumbling over semantics (which I doubt), then I apologize! However, if what you're maintaining is that some men are WITH excuse because they haven't heard of or read the Bible- then you are sadly bereft in your understanding of Biblical Theology. Now, with that said, which is it that you maintain: 1. All have sinned and are without excuse; 2. All have sinned but have an excuse I'm hoping that I've sucinctly stated the question. We are definitely experiencing a "problem" in our communication.Communication only occures when both parties understand each other. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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6 | Are unbelievers in any way "saved"? | Heb 11:1 | Rowdy | 118864 | ||
Rom 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. One last point you didn't address is the scripture above. How do you reconcile your statement with verse 12? But apparently you plan to do just that and somehow explain so I'll move on to my next question. Call me dense but can you please help walk me through Judgment Day and pretend I've lived the best life I could, was basically kind to my neighbors, etc. I was bascially a decent sort of fella and live up to my conscience. HOWEVER, I didn't know a thing about the Bible or any of the concepts of christianity, Jewish religion, nothing at all about organized religion; let's say I lived my whole entire life on a deserted island. Please explain to me the mechanics, step by step of this kind of Justice our Lord will meter out to people like the one I've just described. Remember now, my lack of knowledge of Godly concepts was through no fault of my own. This should be very, very interesting to read. I hope all Forum participants are following closely this thread of conversation. God bless. --Rowdy |
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7 | Are unbelievers in any way "saved"? | Heb 11:1 | BradK | 118872 | ||
Rowdy, Question answered! I do not wish to repeat myself- with all due respect. Maybe someone else would care to step in here. Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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