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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153611 | ||
OK, you challenged so I reply. Here is the scripture you wanted (or thought wasn't there). Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. Also, keep in mind that the original author (the Holy Spirit through Paul) had two "Certain people" He was targeting as audience. Paul's certain people in his time and you and me and those to come after if the Lord should delay. So you left out one very important criteria for interpretation. "How does this apply to me today" But the rest of what you said there was good. You were accurate on most of your basic history regarding paul and his time but, as for Paul continuing to practice the Jewish faith, I think your way wrong on that. He did continue to observe the law but only in that it revealed his sin to him (Romans 7:7 for example). But, he did not continue to practice the Jewish faith which absolutely declared obedience to the law a requirement for righteousness and demanded circumcision, as well as the observance of a whole array of events. Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Gal 4:11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain. (NASB) I'm like you and don't like to change my position unless I can be shown evidence to redirect me. I hope this helps Jeff |
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2 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | MJH | 153874 | ||
A couple things about your post separate from my other reply. Rev. 11:12 refers to the two witnesses going to be with the Lord, not the rapture as we usually think of it. This is not unlike Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus. These cases do show people “going up to be with the Lord.” But this is for a time until Jesus returns. I was just thinking, depending on your view of the way the end times will occur, you might see the rapture as very similar to Enoch, Elijah, and the two witnesses. Next: Paul had “certain people” in mind…. It is true that the Holy Spirit knew that this letter would be read by all generations in all places, but Paul didn’t know this, nor, I am quite certain, did he even contemplate the possibility. However, good interpretation, if I can go back to my college classes for a moment, says that you need to know what a text meant in the “then and there” before you can know what it means in the “hear and now.” Or even better, “The text can never mean what it never meant.” So if 1 Thess 4:17 meant to the original hearers that Jesus would return and stay, then it can’t mean that Jesus would return and then go back to heaven with the righteous to us. Not only that, but it contradicts what Revelations 21:1-3 says and the basic picture of God dwelling with mankind from Gen. 2 – Revelations 22. Galatians 4:9-11 I am going to quote David Stern here because he says it better than I could. “…But when Gentiles observe these Jewish holidays neither out of joy in sharing what God has given the Jewish people nor out of spiritual identification with them, but out of fear induced by Judaizers who have convinced them that unless they do these things, God will not accept them, then they are not obeying the Torah but subjugating themselves to legalism; and legalism is just another species of those weak and miserable elemental demonic spirits, no better than the idols left behind. (An alternative interpretation, however, is that the “days, months, seasons, and years” of this passage …refer…to pagan Gentile feasts, naturally and directly reflecting “those weak and miserable elemental spirits.”)” ---end David Stern quote. One way we can know that Paul was not telling the Galatians (and Jews like himself in particular) to not celebrate the Jewish holidays, is because they kept doing so themselves. Even the Gentiles celebrated Passover as can be seen in Eusebius’s Church History. Book 5 # 23 from Paul Maier’s translation, “At that time (180’s AD), no small controversy erupted because all of the Asian dioceses thought the savior’s paschal (Passover) festival should be observed, according to ancient tradition, on the 14th day of the moon, on which the Jews had been commanded to sacrifice the lamb.” The story goes on to say that two groups, both celebrating the Passover as Gentile Christians, thought the fast should end on a different day. However, they all celebrated the Passover. Also by Eusebius, Book 6 #22, “…Hippolytus…wrote “The Paschal Festival”, a chronology offering a sixteen year cycle of dates for the Passover . . .” Those Historians out there may feel free to dispute my understanding of this, since my only source here is a translation of Eusebius. Also the following texts show Paul celebrating the feasts after he wrote Galatians: Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus. Act 20:16 For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he might not have to spend time in Asia, for he was hastening to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the day of Pentecost. 1Co 5:8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival . . . Here in 1 Cor 5:8, David Stern says, “I question [the common thought that this is figurative language]. I see no compelling reason in the context to excise the plain sense (p’shat) from the phrase, ‘Let us celebrate the Seder.’ Instead, it seems that the early believers, Gentiles included, observed the Jewish feast Pesach (Passover). As we will see, their service combined traditional Jewish Passover symbolism with the new symbolism relating to Jesus the Messiah’s central role in Jewish and world history. Evidently the Corinthian congregation observed Passover without supposing that, as many of today’s Christians might think, they were “going back under the law.” End quote. MJH |
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3 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | kalos | 154012 | ||
"Paul remained an observant Jew" MJH: You have written a fine post. You really hit the nail on the head when you wrote: '...you need to know what a text meant in the “then and there” before you can know what it means in the “hear and now.” Or even better, “The text can never mean what it never meant.”' In support of your position, I quote the following: 'Was the Apostle Paul Torah observant or did he believe he was no longer under the "Tutor"? 'The New Testament shows that Paul remained an observant Jew even after coming to faith in Messiah: 'Acts 21:20- Having been accused of teaching Jews to abandon the Torah, Paul takes some other men with him to the temple to observe purification rites, in order to prove that he is “living in obedience to the Torah.” 'Acts 24:17-18 – Paul testifies that his intent was to present offerings, and that he was ceremonially clean (in accordance with the Torah) 1 Cor 9:18-23 -- Paul became as one under the law (Torah) to win those under the law. Paul repeatedly made it clear, however, that Torah-observance is not a means of salvation, and should not be imposed on Gentile believers at all: 'Galatians – (The whole book!) 'Romans 3:20 – No one will be declared righteous by observing the law. 'Gal 2:14 – Paul confronts Peter for forcing Gentiles to follow Jewish customs. (See also Acts 15:1-21) 'Acts 21:25 – James agrees that Gentile believers should not be compelled to observe the Torah, at the same time as he urges Paul to demonstrate to the Jews of Jerusalem that he (as a Jew) is observant. (...) 'The bottom line seems to be that Observing the Torah is not wrong, but thinking it can buy salvation is wrong. There is no benefit in subjecting oneself to the legal code after embracing the Grace of God through Messiah. It should probably also be pointed out the Torah Paul kept is not the same as Rabbinic Judaism today. Rabbinic Judaism is Torah plus endless “traditions of men,” and I doubt Paul had much concern for these. ____________________ www.amfi.org [Note: My quoting www.amfi.org should not be taken as my endorsement of everything posted at that site.] |
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